Iran Takes 15 British Soldiers At Gunpoint

[OnlineStageGear]

The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."

[OnlineStageGear]

I just love it how our forces and our alies have been taken prisoner of war in the past, raped, beaten, mutilated, castrated, tortured, put through slave labor, starved, hung, beheaded, shot and God only knows what else, yet we are the bad guys for what we have done in Guantanmo.

[charvelguy]

Not to belittle any atrocity that any serviceman has gone through but the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp will be likely equated to the American Hanoi Hilton.

[hippietim]

I just love it how our forces and our alies have been taken prisoner of war in the past, raped, beaten, mutilated, castrated, tortured, put through slave labor, starved, hung, beheaded, shot and God only knows what else, yet we are the bad guys for what we have done in Guantanmo.

How does one justify the other?

[fett]

They have been let go. So what else is new? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...4/wiran704.xml

[Cleveland Metal]

That news was mentioned about ten posts ago...

Ya Slacker...

[Sukisyn]

wow .. and they each got a new suit out of the ordeal...

[fett]

That news was mentioned about ten posts ago...

Ya Slacker...

I'm sorry.:ROTF: I just heard it on the noon news. Why would anyone think that it would turn out any differently than it did? All the previous posts got off-topic so I gave up on them.

[Tashtego]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashtego
Equating the incarceration of Moslem terrorists captured in a combat zone, un-uniformed and actively engaging NATO forces, with the Iranian's actions is so silly it hardly bears engaging in argument.

Do you work for Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashtego
I actually pity the plight of today's cultural relativist who must somehow find a way to convince themselves that the US is no better (if not worse) in every way than societies like Iran.

I hope you aren't implying that I am one of these people. I think there are plenty of things about our society that suck balls but I'm not ready to declare the Iranian way as the one true way.

Anyone from any society that thinks themselves superior or that their way is the one true way for all and further that they should impose their way at any cost - those people are not only ignorant but dangerous too.

This is a threadbare straw-man argument that doesn't address the point at all. Your monologue regarding some 'one true way' or any particular individual's personal beliefs has nothing to do with the discussion. The relative merits of the two societies however are obvious. Your original post of the W. Post article in response to my criticism of the Iranian hostage taking is an assertion of your belief in the moral equivalence of the U.S. and Iran; At least in regard to the Gitmo detainees and the UK hostages. I think that assertion is ridiculous.

[lerxstcat]

Scott, they are very specifically not POWs. Our government has made that specific point *very* clear to us. So if they aren't POWs we need charges to hold them. Notice that we are not doing this on American soil. Bush is doing everything he can to avoid the laws of our nation and the articles of the Geneva Convention.

If someone was holding hundreds of Americans or Europeans in this manner most of us would be extremely outraged and demand action - similar to our British friends that were taken.

Since they are not being charged with a crime and they are not POWs, what the fuck do you call them? Detainees? For YEARS? It was absurd when they first did this but now several years later it is something else entirely.

I have no love for the detainees at Gitmo. So if they're guilty of crimes fucking charge them, try them, and kill them. Or declare them POWs. All I am saying is that we have laws that cover this sort of thing and we should be following them. Then again, the current administration seems to have complete contempt for our laws and processes - just ask an illegal immigrant how kick ass it is to break our laws.

The problem is that they come closer to POW than to any other designation, but since we are not at declared war with a nation-state their status doesn't quite fit that designation.

As for why not try them in our legal system, our legal system works to a much more rigorous standard - with many technical loopholes - than a wartime standard. This is a wartime situation even though it doesn't fit existing rules and standards of such. So, a new and unique situation requires new and unique approach to the problem.

Also, I believe that Guantanamo IS considered US soil in the same sense that a US Embassy is considered such. It's under exclusive military control, whihc means Executive Branch control, which does make a difference.

[lerxstcat]

Not to belittle any atrocity that any serviceman has gone through but the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp will be likely equated to the American Hanoi Hilton.

You are right, but "equated" doesn't mean they are the same. Bush has been equated to Hitler by some, but last I heard he hadn't gassed 6 million people for a Final Solution.

[shobet]

You are right, but "equated" doesn't mean they are the same. Bush has been equated to Hitler by some, but last I heard he hadn't gassed 6 million people for a Final Solution.

And he doesn't have a silly little mustache!

But if Bush is Hitler, then does that make Blair Mussolini? If that's so then we get to hang him and his wife, make raspberry noises at them in the street and hit them like a pair of stuffed pinatas.

[fett]

You just have to be as old as I am to have a sense of history. I guess. Bush will go down as the worse president in US history. Blair will be right behind him. It all comes down to what they did at the time they did it and it will not be a very nice read.

[lerxstcat]

I'm not THAT much younger than you, Fett - though I AM younger, and always will be - - and a sense of history doesn't always mean the same viewpoint. Richard Nixon is a case in point. Who in 1975 would've though he would earn redemption before he died? The only reason he didn't get a state funeral is because he had the grace to refuse one.

We've had worse Presidents than Bush - try James Buchanan, William Howard Taft and Warren G. Harding to name three.

[shobet]

You just have to be as old as I am to have a sense of history. I guess. Bush will go down as the worse president in US history. Blair will be right behind him. It all comes down to what they did at the time they did it and it will not be a very nice read.

You're old enough to know that everything goes in cirlces, right?
That great wheel just keeps on a turning...

It's a bit odd viewing your politicians from this side of the pond. I can't speak for the rest of the people over here, but Bush scares the living crap out of me. As does Teflon Tony pandering to his every wish, "How shall I bend over today George?". It will all end in tears.