U.S. immigration: out of control

[Cybersavior]

Not intended to be all political, but wow. This was an education!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=roy+beck&hl=en

[skorb]

Roy Beck is a great guy and he's been fighting overpopulation and by direct association, illegal immigration (because it's the sole cause of devastating overpopulation in the US) for years with Numbers USA, of which I am a member.

heed Roy's words. he is 100% correct, and the Bush administration and open-border Democrats will end this country if allowed to pass their precious illegal alien amnesty plan.

[danastas]

I'm just going to refer to the chart. If you go back in American history, it's ALWAYS been the case that immigrants and their descendants eventually outnumbered those born in the US. The US has been on this upward trajctory since the beginning. If this weren't the case, we'd largely be an Anglo-descendant country, after the Puritans and English settlers, and we're not.

Someone could have made that same exact chart in 1907, and it would have showed the same thing. Immigrants AND their descendants (the and is key) would eventually outnumber those with roots in the US several generations ago. Look at how German the US is right now, by far and away the most common ethnic background there is, and if you look at the charts from the 19th century, it was not nearly so dominant.

This is what I find ironic. In the audience you obviously had some people of color who were shaking their heads in dismay. The thing is, the chart was projecting into the future about 30 or 40 years down the line. In that span, you have 3 generations. How many of thos epeople of color were third generation? Or second? It's ironic they were dismayed when in fact, if someone had drawn up that same chart in 1967, they would be one of the so-called descendants on the red side of the line.

Looking at the chart ultimately, the impact of it is that current immigrants and their descendants will eventually outnumber the current born-in-America Americans. That tends to send a chill into some quarters, and it's a powerful chart because of it. The problem is, that's ALWAYS been the case. There hasn't been a 40 year stretch in American history where that wasn't the casse. Look at the census in 1890. Then look at it in 1940. The population doubled. We can assume that immigrants assimilate and that by the third generation you have what we call your average intergated American.

[Tashtego]

In the good old days you are referring to assimilation was demanded of immigrants. That is not the case today and the results of uncontrolled immigration into our society, unwilling to demand even language assimilation, are unlikely to be the same as previous influxes.

[skorb]

Looking at the chart ultimately, the impact of it is that current immigrants and their descendants will eventually outnumber the current born-in-America Americans. That tends to send a chill into some quarters, and it's a powerful chart because of it. The problem is, that's ALWAYS been the case. There hasn't been a 40 year stretch in American history where that wasn't the casse. Look at the census in 1890. Then look at it in 1940. The population doubled. We can assume that immigrants assimilate and that by the third generation you have what we call your average intergated American.

the point is, danastas, that WE have control over our own immigration policy, i.e. who gets to come here. it is not like a wave that you have no choice but to let wash over you and drown you. if we had elected officials with a spine and with some pride in America, we could regain that control again very easily.

you also gloss over the fact that ILLEGAL immigration from Mexico is nothing at all like the legal and needed immigration from Europe in the early 20th century. that was very closely controlled back then and we had large pauses, numbers of years in which we allowed NO immigration to the US at all. it is nothing like the chaos and invasion we have today.

this is why the Bush administration's debased and immoral encouragement of illegal immigration (amnesty for lawbreakers/taxcheats/identity thieves) and lack of interest in actually walling off our southern border to gain real control of it, is so dangerous to our American culture and society. there is no assimilation going on in the current massive illegal Mexican reconquista of the American Southwest, other than them working very hard to assimilate CA into Mexico.

[YetAnotherOne]

this is why the Bush administration's debased and immoral encouragement of illegal immigration (amnesty for lawbreakers/taxcheats/identity thieves) and lack of interest in actually walling off our southern border to gain real control of it, is so dangerous to our American culture and society. there is no assimilation going on in the current massive illegal Mexican reconquista of the American Southwest, other than them working very hard to assimilate CA into Mexico.

I don't really take issue with that and I agree wholeheartedly that the result of this wave of unassimilated immigrants will be vastly different than the result of the assimilated immigrants of years past. However let's be honest about the big reason no one is interested in closing our southern border: the long-term viability of our social entitlement schemes depends on a nearly geometric growth in our working population. Europe is losing its native cultures under vast waves of unassimilated immigrants brought in for very similar reasons, they're just 20 or so years ahead of us on the curve. Since neither American nor European families have enough children / future taxpayers to support our social ponzi schemes we're both forced to import them in large numbers.

[charvelguy]

My Father came here legally..had to have a sponsor, learned the language, made something of himself.
I can understand why illegals come here...its alot better than where they came from money wise/conditions wise in most places. Some of them do work here with intent of going back. They build up capital and go back to Mexico after 2-3 years to own a business or a home.
It ticks me off.. Bush is bending and pandering to corporate whims and needs. You have an illegal work for no benefits as a designated ''part time" employee for years and years, pay them under wage while they train themselves in to many areas of skill and maybe 5 years down the road..have them hired on FT...(when they have been FT hours all the while) which is illegal in itself because the company has been bending the federal labor laws for FT because they can.

The company I worked for had hired a former Taco Bell manager originally from Columbia and put him above most people working in the biz for ten+ years to tap into his labor and language skills. While he's a good manager.. that says alot about the kind of labor being used and putting me out of a job...they have a generally lower skill level initially but are trainable to some degree to perform specific tasks and probably get treated better than myself because they are of the majority. They figure mexicans have better attitudes because they're showing themselves to be more appreciative and loyal overall in work ethic as well as being more cost effective and profitable for upper management bonuses.

[skorb]

let's be honest about the big reason no one is interested in closing our southern border: the long-term viability of our social entitlement schemes depends on a nearly geometric growth in our working population. Europe is losing its native cultures under vast waves of unassimilated immigrants brought in for very similar reasons, they're just 20 or so years ahead of us on the curve. Since neither American nor European families have enough children / future taxpayers to support our social ponzi schemes we're both forced to import them in large numbers.

well, that is the "justification" for inaction today, from some quarters. I think that it is bullshit, quite frankly.

you are smart enough to know, however, that that kind of future does not have to occur, if we plan correctly and address the issues another way. our social entitlements are broken. we can fix them and avoid a future crisis of the sort you presumed here and which is peddled by the US Chamber of Commerce/Cargill/IBP/Microsoft/etc confluence of greedy bastards.

present-day Europe should be our wakeup call, for chrissakes.

[5074charvel]

From a european standpoint it seems more than ironic to read a thread about US citizens speaking up against immigration to the US. In my area - northern part of germany - over 50% of school kids have a migrational background. Germany never used to be a country to immigrate to and I doubt society here yet realized the challenges that lay ahead.

[charvelguy]

I'm not opposed to immigration.. I'm opposed to illegal immigration and labor practices. I'm held to a certian standard as is my employer by federal law.. and those laws and being bent bigtime.

[YetAnotherOne]

well, that is the "justification" for inaction today, from some quarters. I think that it is bullshit, quite frankly.

you are smart enough to know, however, that that kind of future does not have to occur, if we plan correctly and address the issues another way. our social entitlements are broken. we can fix them and avoid a future crisis of the sort you presumed here and which is peddled by the US Chamber of Commerce/Cargill/IBP/Microsoft/etc confluence of greedy bastards.

present-day Europe should be our wakeup call, for chrissakes.

Actually I couldn't agree more but the fly in that ointment is the part where our political class works up the nerve to tackle a serious overhaul of our federal entitlement programs. IMHO that's simply not going to happen so until someone convinces me otherwise I'll continue to entertain a pragmatic view of immigration, both legal and illegal.

The political problem becomes even worse when you consider at an abstract level that the left will never attempt to slow immigration because they, broadly, view immigrant groups as voting blocks that tend to favor their preferred social welfare state model for the country. On the right you have a somewhat unholy alliance of religious conservatives who see the overwhelmingly Catholic flow of Mexican and Latin American immigrants as ideological allies, and the right wing of America's corporate establishment that sees a ready supply of inexpensive labor and the potential to stave off the ruinous tax increases that inaction on entitlement reform will soon necessitate. Couple the relative clout of those three camps with the fact that immigration is among the most easily demagogued of all political issues and you have a recipe that pretty much guarantees perpetual inaction on meaningful immigration reform.

European and American immigration patterns will arrive at widely differing ends. Whereas much of Western Europe seems poised to me entirely remade into something vastly different in the span of a few generations it’s unlikely that the US will change much since our immigrants are far more compatible with our society than those flooding much of Europe. Europe may become nearly unrecognizable in a few decades but only the flavor will change in the US, the basic structures aren’t going to undergo any wrenching upheavals any time soon.

And for the record: I’m pro-immigration. I have the utmost respect for folks who’ll pack up and move to foreign lands in search of a better life. That’s to be admired, not torn down.

[Guitardude86]

You guys watch out.. I may come over there sometime.. It's a lottery fer chrissakes https://www.usafis.org/

EDIT: Can you believe it.. I signed up just for fun, put my name and phonenumber down, but I cancelled when on the next page they wanted my creditcard number.... Anyways, about 20 minutes later a guy fucking calls me from the US.. Starts asking about my situation, what my plans are, do I want to live in the US etc.. I guess I was "eligible" because I'm from a small country or something.. Damn.. That was kinda freaky

[Norton]

I think it was a very good and reasonable speech.Every land has a maximum capacity.If you load more people than the land can handle,it makes problems.


Immigration is not a solution for the people on the world.If every country got in a stable and decent form,there would be no need for immigration except for personal choices.


That guy's definitely got a point.

[danastas]

the point is, danastas, that WE have control over our own immigration policy, i.e. who gets to come here. it is not like a wave that you have no choice but to let wash over you and drown you. if we had elected officials with a spine and with some pride in America, we could regain that control again very easily.

you also gloss over the fact that ILLEGAL immigration from Mexico is nothing at all like the legal and needed immigration from Europe in the early 20th century. that was very closely controlled back then and we had large pauses, numbers of years in which we allowed NO immigration to the US at all. it is nothing like the chaos and invasion we have today.

this is why the Bush administration's debased and immoral encouragement of illegal immigration (amnesty for lawbreakers/taxcheats/identity thieves) and lack of interest in actually walling off our southern border to gain real control of it, is so dangerous to our American culture and society. there is no assimilation going on in the current massive illegal Mexican reconquista of the American Southwest, other than them working very hard to assimilate CA into Mexico.

You may be right in that illegal immigration is by definition hard to quantify, but up here in the border states and New england where I grew up, you meet tons of people who will tell you their grandfather from someplace in Europe crossed the Canadian border illegally. The main difference is, they were European, and the Mexicans are Mexican.

[danastas]

All I said about the speech was that the chart, purporting to show how the immigrants and their descendants will outnumber us all, does a disservice to the viewer when it doesn't point out that this has ALWAYS been the case.

Secondly, all the cuts to people of color in the audience shaking their heads in dismay was kind of proscribed, wouldn't you say?