U.S. immigration: out of control

[skorb]

Actually I couldn't agree more but the fly in that ointment is the part where our political class works up the nerve to tackle a serious overhaul of our federal entitlement programs. IMHO that's simply not going to happen so until someone convinces me otherwise I'll continue to entertain a pragmatic view of immigration, both legal and illegal.

I used to also think in the same defeatist terms, thinking that there was no way to influence that debate or change elected officials' positions. but since I have joined Numbers USA and have been part of the thousands of citizens calling their elected officials regularly to press against Amnesty, and I have thus seen what looked like a foregone conclusion of Amnesty being passed turning into not a sure thing at all, and a large increase in the pro-enforcement ranks of Congress, I no longer can validate any kind of defeatist approach to the problem of illegal immigration the social programs that illegal aliens parasitically attach themselves to once here.

The political problem becomes even worse when you consider at an abstract level that the left will never attempt to slow immigration because they, broadly, view immigrant groups as voting blocks that tend to favor their preferred social welfare state model for the country. On the right you have a somewhat unholy alliance of religious conservatives who see the overwhelmingly Catholic flow of Mexican and Latin American immigrants as ideological allies, and the right wing of America's corporate establishment that sees a ready supply of inexpensive labor and the potential to stave off the ruinous tax increases that inaction on entitlement reform will soon necessitate. Couple the relative clout of those three camps with the fact that immigration is among the most easily demagogued of all political issues and you have a recipe that pretty much guarantees perpetual inaction on meaningful immigration reform.

correct on most fronts, but the last part is changing. and frankly perpetual inaction is better than amnesty for illegal aliens. I'm very well versed in the open-borders forces and why they are doing what they are doing. I follow this issue daily with close scrutiny.

European and American immigration patterns will arrive at widely differing ends. Whereas much of Western Europe seems poised to me entirely remade into something vastly different in the span of a few generations it’s unlikely that the US will change much since our immigrants are far more compatible with our society than those flooding much of Europe. Europe may become nearly unrecognizable in a few decades but only the flavor will change in the US, the basic structures aren’t going to undergo any wrenching upheavals any time soon.

in this respect, you could not be more wrong. I take it you don't live in the Southwest where the Mexican takeover of our cities and governments in CA, AZ, NM, CO and TX is nearly complete. I'd call that a "wrenching upheaval" if there ever was one. I think you need to educate yourself on what is actually going on where I live. I urge you to check out immigrationwatchdog.com to get up to speed on these important issues.

And for the record: I’m pro-immigration. I have the utmost respect for folks who’ll pack up and move to foreign lands in search of a better life. That’s to be admired, not torn down.

nowhere in you post (which I agreed in many parts) did you differentiate legal immigration and illegal immigration. the absence of that very important delinator detracts from your position because that is the very issue at stake here. I too favor legal immigration if it is handled in a controlled fashion with regular pauses. I am staunchly opposed to illegal immigration as our govt has allowed it to occur almost unchecked for the past 15 years. nothing will end America faster than unchecked massive illegal immigration.

and danastas, yes, this is a "tribe" thing, but not exactly in the way you indicated. historically white european immigrants, most legal, some illegal via Canada, mostly assimilated into US culture, but Mexican illegal aliens mostly do not. for the Mexicans it is their tribe first and foremost and guess what, they have a large number of their tribe belonging to vicious and subversive racist groups like La Raza (The Race) and MEChA, both groups that espouse that the hispanic race is superior to white anglos and that Mexicans still own the southwest united states and it is their right to reclaim it. they aren't all nice gardeners and benign housekeepers like Bush wants you to think.

normal legal immigration is so far from what we have going on out here it's not even funny. this is an organized takeover by an enemy foreign nation, helped along by our own corrupt govt. we don't have to accept it.

[danastas]

Actually I couldn't agree more but the fly in that ointment is the part where our political class works up the nerve to tackle a serious overhaul of our federal entitlement programs. IMHO that's simply not going to happen so until someone convinces me otherwise I'll continue to entertain a pragmatic view of immigration, both legal and illegal.

The political problem becomes even worse when you consider at an abstract level that the left will never attempt to slow immigration because they, broadly, view immigrant groups as voting blocks that tend to favor their preferred social welfare state model for the country. On the right you have a somewhat unholy alliance of religious conservatives who see the overwhelmingly Catholic flow of Mexican and Latin American immigrants as ideological allies, and the right wing of America's corporate establishment that sees a ready supply of inexpensive labor and the potential to stave off the ruinous tax increases that inaction on entitlement reform will soon necessitate. Couple the relative clout of those three camps with the fact that immigration is among the most easily demagogued of all political issues and you have a recipe that pretty much guarantees perpetual inaction on meaningful immigration reform.

European and American immigration patterns will arrive at widely differing ends. Whereas much of Western Europe seems poised to me entirely remade into something vastly different in the span of a few generations it’s unlikely that the US will change much since our immigrants are far more compatible with our society than those flooding much of Europe. Europe may become nearly unrecognizable in a few decades but only the flavor will change in the US, the basic structures aren’t going to undergo any wrenching upheavals any time soon.

And for the record: I’m pro-immigration. I have the utmost respect for folks who’ll pack up and move to foreign lands in search of a better life. That’s to be admired, not torn down.

The fix for SS is so easy, but not painless. Either one of these fixes would do it. Cap SS payments to the wealthy and/or raise the retirement age. There it's fixed. In one case, the pain would be felt by everyone (mostly people in their 50s and 60s) and in the other by wealthy people. It seems a bit absurd to me to perpetuate illegal immigration to fix SS. I think it's likelier that they're looking at quarterly profits and cheap labor.

Of course, if you listen to local farmers, Americans are not willing to do the kind of grunt work that they need anymore, so make no mistake, the price of food will skyrocket.

[danastas]

I used to also think in the same defeatist terms, thinking that there was no way to influence that debate or change elected officials' positions. but since I have joined Numbers USA and have been part of the thousands of citizens calling their elected officials regularly to press against Amnesty, and I have thus seen what looked like a foregone conclusion of Amnesty being passed turning into not a sure thing at all, and a large increase in the pro-enforcement ranks of Congress, I no longer can validate any kind of defeatist approach to the problem of illegal immigration the social programs that illegal aliens parasitically attach themselves to once here.


correct on most fronts, but the last part is changing. and frankly perpetual inaction is better than amnesty for illegal aliens. I'm very well versed in the open-borders forces and why they are doing what they are doing. I follow this issue daily with close scrutiny.


in this respect, you could not be more wrong. I take it you don't live in the Southwest where the Mexican takeover of our cities and governments in CA, AZ, NM, CO and TX is nearly complete. I'd call that a "wrenching upheaval" if there ever was one. I think you need to educate yourself on what is actually going on where I live. I urge you to check out immigrationwatchdog.com to get up to speed on these important issues.


nowhere in you post (which I agreed in many parts) did you differentiate legal immigration and illegal immigration. the absence of that very important delinator detracts from your position because that is the very issue at stake here. I too favor legal immigration if it is handled in a controlled fashion with regular pauses. I am staunchly opposed to illegal immigration as our govt has allowed it to occur almost unchecked for the past 15 years. nothing will end America faster than unchecked massive illegal immigration.

and danastas, yes, this is a "tribe" thing, but not exactly in the way you indicated. historically white european immigrants, most legal, some illegal via Canada, mostly assimilated into US culture, but Mexican illegal aliens mostly do not. for the Mexicans it is their tribe first and foremost and guess what, they have a large number of their tribe belonging to vicious and subversive racist groups like La Raza (The Race) and MEChA, both groups that espouse that the hispanic race is superior to white anglos and that Mexicans still own the southwest united states and it is their right to reclaim it. they aren't all nice gardeners and benign housekeepers like Bush wants you to think.

normal legal immigration is so far from what we have going on out here it's not even funny. this is an organized takeover by an enemy foreign nation, helped along by our own corrupt govt. we don't have to accept it.

For me, it's not a question of enforcement. Enforcement opens up a can of worms that a freedom loving people should never put up worth. It's really a question of labor. For instance, a SS registry would instantly require businesses to make sure their workers were legal. But since a business can't verify a SS#, how do you make them accountable? And why is the government draggint their feet on a registry?

Then there's the complaint that the children of laborers eat up local resources. Well, if you're going to bring them over to work (and we are clearly bringing them over because we need them to work the fields) then you can't deny their children schooling and the like.

The problem is with local government, some communities are drowning, but this is a national problem in that we don't have statewide and national school systems. It's all done locally. If we had a national program, then everyone would be pitching in to pay for the resources consumed by illegal laborers and their offspring.

[skorb]

The fix for SS is so easy, but not painless. Either one of these fixes would do it. Cap SS payments to the wealthy and/or raise the retirement age. There it's fixed. In one case, the pain would be felt by everyone (mostly people in their 50s and 60s) and in the other by wealthy people. It seems a bit absurd to me to perpetuate illegal immigration to fix SS. I think it's likelier that they're looking at quarterly profits and cheap labor.

Of course, if you listen to local farmers, Americans are not willing to do the kind of grunt work that they need anymore, so make no mistake, the price of food will skyrocket.

that claim by farmers is total BS. frankly farmers these days are lazy and complacent from gorging on cheap slave labor and don't want to do the work necessary to find a solution other than cheap slave labor. after the bracero program of Mexican guest workers was ended in the 60's, those farmers developed an automated method of picking the tomatoes that those workers had picked. tomato production was maintained and prices even decreased.

that garbage they feed us about produce prices going way way up is a flat out lie. repeated enough, people begin to believe the lie. the labor element in the total cost of produce is much smaller than they are leading you to believe. would produce go up some without illegal alien labor to pick it, yes a little bit, a few cents, but but it would not skyrocket by any measure.

I will add that I would favor a very limited and strictly controlled guest worker plan for farm work. but that's it.

[skorb]

For me, it's not a question of enforcement. Enforcement opens up a can of worms that a freedom loving people should never put up worth.

*incredulous*

what? that makes zero sense bro.

exactly what "can of worms" in enforcing our immigration laws to have an ordered and fair society, is so unpalatable to you?

[charvelguy]

I have a feeling he's referring to possibly a racial or consitutional slant which limits immigrant rights but by all means I'll let him clarify. I don't wish to speak on his behalf. I will say most who plan to go back or tentively plan are not paying taxes on their wages now but they also do not receive medical benefits either..so they usully encourage within the community of illegals to explore 'hooking up' with an eligible 'legal' or naturalized or natural born US citizen.

[YetAnotherOne]

that claim by farmers is total BS. frankly farmers these days are lazy and complacent from gorging on cheap slave labor and don't want to do the work necessary to find a solution other than cheap slave labor.

Gotta love farming experts from Los Angeles. :ROTF:

[YetAnotherOne]

The fix for SS is so easy, but not painless. Either one of these fixes would do it. Cap SS payments to the wealthy and/or raise the retirement age. There it's fixed. In one case, the pain would be felt by everyone (mostly people in their 50s and 60s) and in the other by wealthy people. It seems a bit absurd to me to perpetuate illegal immigration to fix SS. I think it's likelier that they're looking at quarterly profits and cheap labor.

Of course, if you listen to local farmers, Americans are not willing to do the kind of grunt work that they need anymore, so make no mistake, the price of food will skyrocket.

I support reforming SS to restore it to what it originally was. In the beginning the retirement age was 65 but very few lived to that age and as a result there were something like 65 payers for every person collecting benefits. Today it's more like 2.5 payers per beneficiary. Let's jack the retirement age up to 75-77 to restore the original intent of the program (the intent BTW was to dangle something out there in order to get votes but to keep the program so small and insignificant that it would never threaten the budget).

Reduction in benefits based on income is, in theory, a fine idea but why penalize people who scrimp and save their whole lives in order to support those who are less disciplined? That doesn't make sense.

[skorb]

Gotta love farming experts from Los Angeles. :ROTF:

gotta love immigration policy experts from the midwest.

not that CA is the largest source of produce in the US, or anything....

I note that you provided nothing whatsoever to counter what I stated about that aspect of the open-borders lobby's propaganda.

the canard of the "$10 head of lettuce" has been much discussed in not only our local media (we have a great afternoon radio show where they hosts constantly focus on these illegal immigration issues and all the lies that are perpetuated to continue the status quo or to push for amnesty), but also extensively in the national media.

if you followed this issue like I do, you would be aware of that. I gladly have been educated on farming economics through following this issue over the past several years and it is simply not as the open borders lobby leads everyone to believe.

I would encourage everyone looking at this issue to follow the money and think for yourselves. don't rely on what you are told by the media or the farming lobbies or your elected officials, because those entities have a vested interest in deceiving you about this stuff.

[danastas]

*incredulous*

what? that makes zero sense bro.

exactly what "can of worms" in enforcing our immigration laws to have an ordered and fair society, is so unpalatable to you?

Having a freakin' thousand mile border on both northern and southern borders to be patrolled by cops and/or minutemen. That's a freakin' nightmare of big government. The first thing we should do is cut off the incentive (ie adopt a SS registry) before we move to crazy draconian measures. I'm already bummed that I have to go through more hassle just to cross into Canada (I live 5 miles from the border).

[danastas]

that claim by farmers is total BS. frankly farmers these days are lazy and complacent from gorging on cheap slave labor and don't want to do the work necessary to find a solution other than cheap slave labor. after the bracero program of Mexican guest workers was ended in the 60's, those farmers developed an automated method of picking the tomatoes that those workers had picked. tomato production was maintained and prices even decreased.

that garbage they feed us about produce prices going way way up is a flat out lie. repeated enough, people begin to believe the lie. the labor element in the total cost of produce is much smaller than they are leading you to believe. would produce go up some without illegal alien labor to pick it, yes a little bit, a few cents, but but it would not skyrocket by any measure.

I will add that I would favor a very limited and strictly controlled guest worker plan for farm work. but that's it.

It may depend on the size of the farm. I live in a city, but just outside for hundreds of miles there are nothing but family farms. You can get great Mexican food up here, but not during the winter when all the migrants leave. I do believe the farmers when they state, Good luck finding natives willing to break their backs in the field picking away for low wages.

[danastas]

I support reforming SS to restore it to what it originally was. In the beginning the retirement age was 65 but very few lived to that age and as a result there were something like 65 payers for every person collecting benefits. Today it's more like 2.5 payers per beneficiary. Let's jack the retirement age up to 75-77 to restore the original intent of the program (the intent BTW was to dangle something out there in order to get votes but to keep the program so small and insignificant that it would never threaten the budget).

Reduction in benefits based on income is, in theory, a fine idea but why penalize people who scrimp and save their whole lives in order to support those who are less disciplined? That doesn't make sense.

It's not based on savings. It's based on income. If you're 70 and you're still earning 150k in income, that's where it kicks in.

My parents worked 6 days a week, 12 hours a day in a small business, raised their 3 kids the best they could, saved as best they could, and though they have a little extra coming in at this point in their 70s, they do NEED SS. Plus, what happens when you get very sick these days in your old age? If you need help, you go broke (all your money is gone) and without SS, you're starving.

[skorb]

Having a freakin' thousand mile border on both northern and southern borders to be patrolled by cops and/or minutemen. That's a freakin' nightmare of big government. The first thing we should do is cut off the incentive (ie adopt a SS registry) before we move to crazy draconian measures. I'm already bummed that I have to go through more hassle just to cross into Canada (I live 5 miles from the border).

oh come on now, there is no real problem with the northern US border and everyone knows that.

hell, if we just walled off the entire southern border, and put employers of illegals in jail very publicly every week, in about a year the problem and the burden on US taxpayers would be gone. we wouldn't need more Border Patrol guys or National Guard guys. I too am anti-big-govt. but even a small govt is supposed to protect the citizenry and provide for social order (enforcing laws so we don't have chaos). right now our govt is NOT doing that at all. in fact they are doing exactly the opposite with Bush's sick amnesty push.

you dislike big govt? if this asshole President is successful in getting his pet amnesty passed, you will see the size of our govt grow immensely. all those illegals (then legalized by El Presidente Boosh) would then be entitled to even more free govt services and social programs, and our sycophant PC officials would bend over to give them all your tax money. they are already doing this for ILLEGALS. imagine how bad it would be if those jerks could make the illegals legal.

[charvelguy]

I've become very used to the sounds of Mana~..they actually have some decent guitar playing and the singer sounds like Sting. Some of the el banda tuba players simply just floor me their phrasing is so quick.

[Guitardude86]

What's all this talk about das SS??