Global Cooling from the 1970's Time and Newsweek

[lerxstcat]

so, what about the fact that the NW passage has finally opened up for the 1st time in reocrded history (thousands of years)? Or ice cover is gone in greenland, thousands of square miles of the antactic haven dropped off into the ocean.

These things have never happened before, as far as know.

can't sweep this under the rug.

That raises an interesting question... WHY was there the legend of a Northwest Passage in the first place? DID this happen before in the dim past and the word was passed down? We postulate from the data we can obtain what happened in the past but since no one was actually able to observe those times and pass the information down to us, we really don't know what conditions prevailed millenia ago.

As thiese articles demonstrate, scientific opinion canswing in a pretty short time. 30 years ago we were awaiting the Ice Age and now it's the melting of the ice caps.

We'll see, that's all we can really say...

[danastas]

That raises an interesting question... WHY was there the legend of a Northwest Passage in the first place? DID this happen before in the dim past and the word was passed down? We postulate from the data we can obtain what happened in the past but since no one was actually able to observe those times and pass the information down to us, we really don't know what conditions prevailed millenia ago.

As thiese articles demonstrate, scientific opinion canswing in a pretty short time. 30 years ago we were awaiting the Ice Age and now it's the melting of the ice caps.

We'll see, that's all we can really say...

The Northwest passage is something that was made-up by the early explorers. The only reason they were looking for something that wasn't there is that it would have saved them the trouble of travelling around Tierra del Fuego, and running aground at the wrong time of year. It NEVER existed going back thousands of years. Before that, there wasn't anyone around to know if it existed, assuming that the Americas weren't populated until 5,000 years ago (which is the current estimate).

Like I said, there are scientific facts, and then there are real hard on the ground facts which no one can deny. Things are happening now in terms of ice melt, glacier erosion, etc. which have nevEr happened before in recorded human history. So, even if you're right and this is a cycle, we're talking about a 7,000 year old cycle at least (going back to earliest written records), not a 30 or 100 or 200 year old cycle. This is HUGE.

[lerxstcat]

I thought humans were thought to be in North America at least 12,000 years ago. Who revised it to 5,000 and why?

As for the NW Passage, it WAS there - simply iced up. That's my point. We have legends such as Atlantis of previous civilizations behind the mists of known history. Who's to say that a civilization of 10,000 years ago DIDN'T know of such a passage, then disappear beneath the waves in a tectonic upheaval?

Conjecture, of course, but just because we don 't have an explicit record doesn't mean that didn't happen and a tale of such a passage didn't get passed on with a grain of truth behind it.

We don't really know of a certainty everything men thought and said even 500 years ago, or even right now. We only know what's written down. That is most likely NOT the sum of human knowledge, it's the sum of what hasn't been lost in translation over millenia.

[danastas]

I thought humans were thought to be in North America at least 12,000 years ago. Who revised it to 5,000 and why?

As for the NW Passage, it WAS there - simply iced up. That's my point. We have legends such as Atlantis of previous civilizations behind the mists of known history. Who's to say that a civilization of 10,000 years ago DIDN'T know of such a passage, then disappear beneath the waves in a tectonic upheaval?

Conjecture, of course, but just because we don 't have an explicit record doesn't mean that didn't happen and a tale of such a passage didn't get passed on with a grain of truth behind it.

We don't really know of a certainty everything men thought and said even 500 years ago, or even right now. We only know what's written down. That is most likely NOT the sum of human knowledge, it's the sum of what hasn't been lost in translation over millenia.

5,000 was from something I just read. it may be wrong, it was referencing the earliest inhabitants of SW USA.

Atlantis was actually dated by Homer at 1600 BC so ...

I think the NW passage idea would be pretty easy to solve. all you'd have to do would be to find its first references and why they came into being at all.

The only question I would have, given early native cultures in the Americas, why would they have any interest in traveling such long distances by water at all? Were they involved in transatlantic, transpacific trade routes. That's why I think it's a European invention.

But this is almost besides the point. The point is that these current events are outside of known history, which we agree on, which also means that the climactic change we're experiencing right now may be cyclical, but even if it is we're going back thousands of years.

[442w30]

The paleo-American is a shadow culture that 8,000 to 12,000 years ago evolved and weathered away with a landscape far different from the scene today. Erosion and decay have been at work for scores of centuries to obliterate their record. On the average, only once in every 20 years for the modern archeologist does the earth yield clues to the lifeways of these first Americans. Rarer still are finds where we can glimpse directly into their fossil eyes. Only four other complete skeletal remains from the paleo-American period have been discovered in the Western World-Washington State, Minnesota, Mexico and Texas(near Waco).

But from her ancient grave on the edge of the Texas Hill Country, the Leanderthal Lady winks through the darkness and promises th show us over the rim of conjecture and into the life and times that she knew so long ago.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/webcasts/time/resources/leanderthal.phtml

[shobet]

I was lucky enought to get to go to the Arctic twice last year to a research station there.

All I can say is that the people who lived and worked there said they had never seen weather like it. Instead of snow they were getting rain, higher than average temperature. The tundra and permafrost were thawing and it was a bit odd wondering around in September with a t-shirt on and not wrapped up in my layers of technical clothing. We thought we would have trouble getting some equipment out of the ground but we were able to simply pull it out and not have to break the usually hard as concrete earth.

I can't answer the question of what is going on but there is something going on and I think we are a major contributor to that. There are so many variables involved it hurts my head, just trying to think about it!

[xenophobe]

I can't answer the question of what is going on but there is something going on and I think we are a major contributor to that.

Sorry, gotta call BS on that. That's like standing at the edge of a lake and taking a really large piss... you're not making the water level rise.

And no matter what extinction level events the Earth has survived, it's always found a way to come back.

To think that man-made pollution has reached, or will even come close to an extinction level event is just plain ludicrous. We do not have a significant effect over the Earth, the solar system or the universe.

An ant hill or bee hive in your back yard effects me how? It doesn't.

[charvelguy]

speaking of bees..

whatcha gonna eat if this gets worse? http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1087

[danastas]

Sorry, gotta call BS on that. That's like standing at the edge of a lake and taking a really large piss... you're not making the water level rise.

And no matter what extinction level events the Earth has survived, it's always found a way to come back.

To think that man-made pollution has reached, or will even come close to an extinction level event is just plain ludicrous. We do not have a significant effect over the Earth, the solar system or the universe.

An ant hill or bee hive in your back yard effects me how? It doesn't.

The ice melting into the water because of high temperatures isn't going to have an effect? It's going to raise water levels and alter currents.

I also didn't read anything about extinction, etc., in the previous post.

As for bees, they're disappearing fast right now; no one knows why. But I suspect your yard will have fewer pollinated flowers if you get rid of the beehive.

[danastas]

speaking of bees..

whatcha gonna eat if this gets worse? http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1087

People are really beating the bushes coming up with theories. You have scientists in Germany looking at GMO. Apparently, some brainiac got the idea to introduce a toxin into a favored plant for bees in order to ward off other insects. Then you have people blaming cell phone towers and signals.
Personally, i stay away from Ben & Jerry's ice cream. That stuff has some of the worst engineered foodstuffs imaginable in it.

[OnlineStageGear]

The ice melting into the water because of high temperatures isn't going to have an effect? It's going to raise water levels and alter currents.

If the ice is already in the water, it's melt will not raise the water levels. The amount of ice above the surface of water is the exact amount of water displaced by the expanding of the ice, so when an Iceberg in the water melts, the level of the water will remain the same. You can do the exact same experiment with a glass of water with an icecube in it. Once the icecube mets, the water level is still the same. When confronted about this data, the global warming theorists changed thier story to the warming of the water will make it expand and raise water levels that way.

[StukaJU87]

I think I'll go cut down a tree, run some internal cumbustion engines, spill some oil, fart, burp, spray some paint/insecticide and have a beer. Not in that order, of course.

[OnlineStageGear]

I think I'll go cut down a tree, run some internal cumbustion engines, spill some oil, fart, burp, spray some paint/insecticide and have a beer. Not in that order, of course.

So it will be a usual Tuesday for you then.

[xenophobe]

The ice melting into the water because of high temperatures isn't going to have an effect? It's going to raise water levels and alter currents.

10,000 years ago, North America was at least 70% covered with glaciers, in many places over a mile thick. I've got something scary to tell you, it has since melted and the continents are still not submerged.

Water expands when it turns to ice. Also, listen to what Matt said about water displacement.

As for the polar ice caps, they routinely go through cyclic melting and freezing cycles, regardless if the average global temperature has gone up or down a few degrees.

[StukaJU87]

So it will be a usual Tuesday for you then.

Yup.