Global Cooling from the 1970's Time and Newsweek

[danastas]

If the ice is already in the water, it's melt will not raise the water levels. The amount of ice above the surface of water is the exact amount of water displaced by the expanding of the ice, so when an Iceberg in the water melts, the level of the water will remain the same. You can do the exact same experiment with a glass of water with an icecube in it. Once the icecube mets, the water level is still the same. When confronted about this data, the global warming theorists changed thier story to the warming of the water will make it expand and raise water levels that way.

Water levels are already rising.

You're assuming the glass is the equivalent of the earth as a container. When a chunk of ice falls into the ocean, only the H20 melts. The rest of it falls into the ocean. I'd literally have to drop ice cubes into an ALREADY full glass to reproudce the experiment. Look at the earth. It's round. It's not a glass. That means I'm dropping MORE water onto water. The result will always be MORE water. Think about. The ice shelves rest on continents, not IN the water, as they would in a glass of water. I don't care what anyone says, if I ADD an ice cube into a glass of water, I'll have MORE water.

You're telling me the currents won't be affected? The hwole reason that the gulf flows the ways it does right now is because of the interplay of warm water with cold water. You've got some tropical waters flowing to the West of Scotland right now, an anomaly that's produced by the currents and the interplay of water temperature.

I have no problem accepting that weather patterns change. The point is, the changes happening now have never before happened in RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY. It's just wrong to state nothing is happening when something is very clearly happening RIGHT NOW.

[shobet]

Sorry, gotta call BS on that. That's like standing at the edge of a lake and taking a really large piss... you're not making the water level rise.

And no matter what extinction level events the Earth has survived, it's always found a way to come back.

To think that man-made pollution has reached, or will even come close to an extinction level event is just plain ludicrous. We do not have a significant effect over the Earth, the solar system or the universe.

An ant hill or bee hive in your back yard effects me how? It doesn't.

You can call it what you want ducky and I never mentioned anything about extinction.

If I knew a bit more about chaotic systems I'd argue your point about an ant-hill in my back yard not affecting you, but I don't know much about them, but it would affect you if I posted all those ants to you.

As for us not affecting our environment in a measurable way, there are changes happening all around us. For example there are quantifiable differences in the thicknes of the ice sheets on Greenland, comparing older data and current data sets show that this is happening, and if all that ice on Greenland melts over time, I think the people on the coasts and low lying areas will notice it, it will be fairly real to them. That's just one example of changing systems, there are plenty more I could quote at you, but I can't be arsed.

I worked in a Physics department at quite a well regarded University in the UK, we had a large atmoshperics group based there and some of the tea time discussions were quite eye opening. I can't say I understood all they were going on about as I deal in 0s and 1s. But I respected the views of these people, and the consensus was that there is definitely something happening and at an accelerating rate.

Notice I'm saying there is something happening and my personal belief at the moment - until someone shows me empirical evidence to the contrary - is that I suspect we have to have a hand in it, but to what extent I can't say as I don't have all the information/evidence, and neither do you unless you're omnipotent. But then again you probably knew I was going to say that.

[YetAnotherOne]

The point is, the changes happening now have never before happened in RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY. It's just wrong to state nothing is happening when something is very clearly happening RIGHT NOW.

It's happening on Mars too:

Study Suggests Mars Ice Caps Eroding
Copyright 2001 Associated Press
December 6, 2001
By PAUL RECER, AP Science Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Vast fields of carbon dioxide ice are eroding from the poles of Mars, suggesting that the climate of the Red Planet is warming and the atmosphere is becoming slightly more dense.
Experts say that over time such changes could allow water to return to the Martian surface and turn the frigid planet into a ``shirt-sleeve environment.''
Michael A. Caplinger, a scientist with Malin Space Science Systems, said that if the rate of carbon dioxide erosion from the Mars poles continues for thousands of years, ``then it could profoundly amend the climate of Mars.''
``You would go from having to wear a spacesuit to just wearing a coat and an oxygen atmosphere,'' said Caplinger.
Caplinger is co-author of a study appearing in the journal Science that analyzes photos of Mars taken by an orbiting spacecraft. The photos were taken in 1999 and in 2001, a period of time that represents one Martian year. Mars is farther from the sun than the Earth and it takes the Red Planet about 23 months to complete one year, a single solar orbit.
Observers have long known that in the Martian winter there is a snow of carbon dioxide caused as temperatures plunge and the gas freezes out of Mars' thin atmosphere.
But the new study suggests that a dense cap of frozen carbon dioxide thought to be permanent at each of the Mars poles may not be all that permanent, said Caplinger.
``It is eroding away at a rapid pace and is going to continue to do that,'' said Caplinger. ``This is not a seasonal change.''
He said the photos suggest that the polar caps are dense slabs of frozen carbon dioxide that may have been deposited over centuries, much like the way seasonal snow on Earth accumulates to form a glacier.
``This stuff has been there for quite a while,'' he said. ``It is packed down and very smooth. We don't see evidence that it is blowing around or drifting.''
Instead, said Caplinger, the glacier-like carbon dioxide ice is eroding, rather like the way a glacier melts on Earth.
The key clue, he said, comes from examining the light patterns on pits at the Martian south pole. Comparing pictures taken a Martian year apart show that the pits are getting wider and deeper as a result of the retreat of the carbon dioxide ice, said Caplinger.
As the C02 ice erodes, it adds carbon dioxide to the Martian atmosphere, causing the ``air'' to get thicker over time. This would enable the planet to hold more of the sun's heat and, perhaps, eventually warm the whole planet enough for water to return to the Martian surface.
Caplinger said it is not known if there is enough carbon dioxide in the polar caps to bring about such an atmospheric change.
But his co-author, Michael C. Malin, said in a statement that if the atmosphere of Mars becomes dense enough, it would ``permit liquid water to persist at or near the surface.''
Other studies have shown that Mars was once awash with great basins of water, but the water is thought to have disappeared or become subsurface ice as the planet cooled and developed a thin C02 atmosphere.
Some experts suggested that any speculation about a Martian climate change is premature.
``This is a really neat observation,'' said Allan H. Treiman of the Lunar and Planetary Institute in Houston. But he said the pictures span a time too short to make predictions about permanent changes in the Mars climate. ``We don't have enough data on Mars to draw any clear conclusions about climate change,'' he said. Error: Unable to read footer file.

Odd that the melting of polar ice on Mars precisely coincides with some warming of polar regions on Earth, no? The odds against humans being responsible for one and natural processes the other are staggering given the simultaneous nature of the events.

[fett]

All I can say is, I'm almost 57. I have spent my life not trying to fuck up the world. I took public transportation or a van pool when I had to commute to SF. I don't burn wood. And, I have a wood burning stove right next to me. I buy already made stuff, AKA used, every chance I get. And, I don't envy you people that will have to figure out what the hell happened 20 years from now. I should live that long.

[mattsmusiccenter]

I heard a radio show last week with the CEO's from some of the largest companies in the world. They were discussing their future plans in reaction to a big summit that took place in February. Apparently 2500 of the world's leading experts on the subject are now in agreement about global climate change, caused by greenhouse gasses.

Walmart could be considered the 20th largest economy in the world and their goal is zero emmisions. They also do business with 60,000 suppliers and are putting pressure on all of them to go "green".

I won't be surprised to see a bunch of windwills and solar panels popping up behind local Walmarts in the next few years.

[YetAnotherOne]

C'mon Matt, everyone knows big business is evil. If Wal Mart is backing it it must be wrong.

[fett]

Where was everyone when our forefukkers denuded the US, Europe, England and just about everywhere else of trees in the world about 300+ years ago? It's not "MY" fault that the world is screwed up. They ran out of wood to burn and went to coal and oil. Those great, great, great, great Bastards.

[Sanctuary]

Yeah, of course we don't have a direct effect on the weather. Ever wonder why it always rains in the weekend? Haha: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199...runc_sys.shtml
Another example which people tend to confuse with Global Warming is the Ozone hole over Antartica. Obviously the growth in the hole is as a direct result of high CFC use by man. Hence why we see skin burn times of less than 15 minutes in the Summer. It took people a couple of decades to accept that CFCs were harmful (and by then, us poor people in the Southern Hemisphere had already seen the consequences) to the protective ozone layer. I see a similar parallel with the whole Global Warming debate. What is it they say? The truth passes through three stages, with the final one being that it was "self evident".

[Bert]

I didn't write this myself, but found it pretty amusing.

For all deniers I provide this practical list, pick your poison:

• There is no real evidence of warming, just model predictions.
• Global Warming is nothing but an environmentalist hoax.
• One warmest year on record is not global warming.
• The surface temperature record is so full of assumptions and corrections that it only says wha
• In the 1970's they said a new ice age was coming.
• Global temperatures over just one hundred years doesn't mean anything.
• Glaciers have always grown and receded. A few glaciers receeding today is not proof of Global
• Climate scientist are trying to hide the dominant role of water vapor in Global Warming.
• H2O is the only significant greenhouse gas.
• There is no proof that CO2 is what is causing the temperature to go up.
• The current warming is just a part of natural variations, humans have nothing to do with it.
• It was even warmer during the Holocene Climatic Optimum
• The Medieval Warm Period was just as warm as it is today.
• All in all, a warmer climate sounds like a good thing.
• Reducing fossil fuel usage is mass suicide.
• Even if we fully implemented the Kyoto protocol it would have virtually no effect on the tempe
• Why do India and China get a free pass? That's not fair, no wonder the US did not join.
• But there is Global Warming on Mars, without any SUV's or human influence at all.
• It was very cold in Wagga Wagga today, this proves there is no Global Warming.
• The ice core records show clearly that CO2 rising is an effect of rising temperatures, not a c
• There is no consensus yet on the cause or even the reality of Global Warming.
• Ice sheets in the Antarctic are growing which proves Global Warming isn't real.
• Volcanoes emit way more CO2 than people, so emissions controls would be useless.
• Global Warming is an illusion caused by the Urban Heat Island Effect.
• We can't even predict the weather next week, forget about 100 years from now!
• Greenland used to be nice and warm and the vikings lived there happily until the Little Ice Ag
• Climate is a chaotic system and just like the stock market, forget about predicting where it w
• The models are unproven and therefore unreliable.
• Satellites are more reliable and they show cooling.
• But the temperature dropped all through the 40's and 50's while CO2 rose, there must be someth
• The Null Hypotheis says the warming is natural.
• Geological history is full of periods where CO2 was high and temperatures were low and vice ve
• The climate is always changing, no reason to think it is our fault.
• Natural emissions of carbon are 30 times bigger than human emissions, so any reductions are us
• CO2 is measured on Mauna Loa, which is an active volcano. That is why the levels are so high
• Global Warming began about 20,000 years ago, humans have nothing to do with it.
• Even if the ice caps melt, the water will go into the ground underneath.
• CO2 has risen on its own before, no reason to assume it is our fault.
• The Hockey Stick is broken, global warming theory falls apart.
• No one knows how confident the models really are.
• There is no historical precedent for CO2 causing warming, it is the opposite.
• James Hansen is being an alarmist, just like before.
• Position statements hide legitimate scientific debate.
• Climate Models don't even take cloud effects into consideration.
• Global Warming stopped eight years ago!
• Global warming is caused by the sun, of course.
• The United States actually absorbs more CO2 than it emits.
• Most of the glaciers are growing, just a few are shrinking.
• If we don't understand the past, how can we understand the present?
• Global Dimming is stronger in the north, so how come it is not warming more in the south?
• "Probaby", "likely", "evidence suggests". Even the scientist aren't sure AGW is real!
• Sea ice in the Antarctic is growing.
• This alledged consensus is just because scientists are afraid to speak out.
• Some locations are actually cooling, which shouldn't happen if there is global warming.
• The small observed warming shows that the climate models are overestimating CO2's importance.
• Sea level measurments in the Arctic Ocean show that it is falling, not rising!

[danastas]

It's happening on Mars too:



Odd that the melting of polar ice on Mars precisely coincides with some warming of polar regions on Earth, no? The odds against humans being responsible for one and natural processes the other are staggering given the simultaneous nature of the events.

Are you being facetious?

Well, I'll pretend you're not. But, I don't think anyone doubts that in history, ice floes have always melted. We came out of the ice age, after all. Really, when you think about it, it's either melting or else freezing. One or the other.

But right now, on earth, it's definitely melting faster than it ever has before in recorded human history. I'd say that has nothing to do with Mars.

[danastas]

C'mon Matt, everyone knows big business is evil. If Wal Mart is backing it it must be wrong.

+1. I am now a global warming denier.

[Bert]

+1. I am now a global warming denier.

But you're an academic! think of all the funding you'll lose!

[danastas]

I'll probably make more money this way. I'm using the theory that there's not a whole lot of room to go backward.

[OnlineStageGear]

Walmart into stopping global warming ? Walmart is the #1 importer of goods made in China and China is absolutely demolishing thier enviroment.

I just don't know what to believe. 20 Billion Scientists say this and 20 Billion say that. All of them are backed by political funding from one side or the other.

[YetAnotherOne]

Are you being facetious?

Well, I'll pretend you're not. But, I don't think anyone doubts that in history, ice floes have always melted. We came out of the ice age, after all. Really, when you think about it, it's either melting or else freezing. One or the other.

But right now, on earth, it's definitely melting faster than it ever has before in recorded human history. I'd say that has nothing to do with Mars.

No I'm dead serious. The retreat of the permanent portion of Mars' polar ice caps is a phenomenon that has been observed over the past 25-30 years, the precise time frame in which the Earth stopped cooling and may have begun a warming cycle (depending on whether you believe the satellite atmospheric temperature measurements or the observed surface temperature measurements).

You may have noticed that large brightly glowing orb that appears in the sky from time-to-time. It's a well-known fact that the energy output of same is not constant but rather varies quite a bit. The surface temperature of its satellites tends to vary with its energy output. Thus when the surface temperature of two of said nearby satellites begins to rise in a vanishingly short time span (in geologic terms) the simplest explanation is that the large energy source in the sky is likely playing a large role.

Occam's razor informs us that we need not seek a more complex explanation when a simple one already exists. The proponents of the human-induced warming hypothesis typically wish to ignore, belittle, or dismiss with less than even a cursory examination the concurrent warming observed on Mars and other bodies in our solar system when natural climatic variation is certainly the simple explanation in this context. I would merely like to see a number of thorough and unbiased analyses of the amount of warming on other bodies throughout the solar system as compared to the amount of warming on Earth. If there is a negative differential we can stop here, if not we then must examine other potential causes including but not limited to possible human impact.

I keep waiting for Fred Singer to make a pilgrimage to Al Gore's home where Dr. Singer will play Galileo to Gore's Bellarmine.