The 2nd Amendment

[npacheco]

What we need is to spot these people, take them into custody and treat them for their mental problems before they explode. This man's English tutor contacted authorities about his homicidal writings, but because he didn't explicitly threaten real people, there was nothing they could do,.

THAT is the problem here...

Not if you listen to the media and others. The problem is guns. The problem is his momma didn't breast feed him long enough or too much. The problem is the school did not get him help when he showed homicidal tendencies in his writing. The problem is the campus police and school officials did not respond appropriately.

I have a wild idea...maybe the problem is this douche bag. HE killled all those people. HE pulled the trigger. HE was mentally unstable.

The problem in today's society is there is no feeling of personal responsibility. It's always somebody else's fault. The gun manufacturers shouldn't be making guns, the tobacco companies should not be selling cigarretts, the cofee at McDonald's is too hot. No one wants to take responsibility for their own frickin' actions.

I'm sorry, but this is a real sore point for me.

[Cleveland Metal]

Same here.... No one seems to be able to take responsibility for their own actions so it is first reaction to place blame somewhere I guess.

[Spivonious]

I totally agree with the personal responsibility. Blaming video games, music, violence on TV/in the theater...sure it may have had an effect, but only because this guy was crazy in the first place. But the media loves a good story I guess. Just last night on the news there was this fancy opening sequence where the movie preview guy said "Massacre at Virginia Tech...now we know the identity of the killer in the nation's worst shooting in history." I felt like it was a preview for the next cop thriller. Having large companies own all of the networks should be illegal. Disney owns ABC, GE owns NBC, and Viacom owns CBS. I really don't like the fact that the same people who are in charge of making cartoons, washing machines, and Star Trek are the ones reporting the news.

[hippietim]

I agree people need to take responsibility for their own actions. But that extends to more than individuals like this shooter. It's interesting that someone would mention tobacco companies in this discussion - that is a perfect example. Corporations need to take responsibility for their actions. Our government could stand a little of that as well. But that's not we/they do. Nobody wants to fess up that they are in fact the problem.

Assigning blame in a situation such as this is not particularly useful. Understanding the root cause is however. What is the catalyst for such behavior? Simply dismissing him as crazy or whatever is convenient but it is no more helpful than some jackass Good Morning America reporter trying to blame someone to bump up ratings. The press is calling him a loner as they do with all such incidents. The reality of it is that most of them are not, at least not by choice. Etc.


Things like this make me think back to my school days. There were absolutely people I went to school with that I could picture snapping. They were abused regularly, outcast, poor, etc. We had horrible race riots in my school. Vietnamese kids literally thrown down the stairwell, beaten to a pulp, etc. But who snapped? A silver spoon varsity football player dating one of the best looking cheerleaders. He went nuts and started shooting one night. His girlfriend gets to spend the rest of her life in a wheelchair. And of course the local news got hold of it and tried to call him a loner of some sort. Go figure.

[Spivonious]

Tim, very good points. Perhaps if it was a little harder to get a gun, then the nutjobs wouldn't have one at the moment they snapped. I'm not saying that guns should be outlawed (although it would be interesting to see what happens then), only have a little stricter controls put on them. Maybe even requiring a mental health exam.

FWIW the Va Tech guy bought his at a store through legal means.

[Cleveland Metal]

Very true Tim.

Casting blame, whether it is environment or personal (like he's nuts etc) is not particularly useful at all other than to make people feel ok about these things.

People do it to feel safe and justified IE: There's a reason it happened, it's ok, can't happen unless these things are alligned etc, I feel safe and ok about the world.

The media does it for a considerably less than honorable reasoning. Sucks how it's all manipulated by these companies for their own agendas really...

[Cleveland Metal]

Tim, very good points. Perhaps if it was a little harder to get a gun, then the nutjobs wouldn't have one at the moment they snapped. I'm not saying that guns should be outlawed (although it would be interesting to see what happens then), only have a little stricter controls put on them. Maybe even requiring a mental health exam.

FWIW the Va Tech guy bought his at a store through legal means.

Well, it's not worth much at all really. If that makes you feel good blaming that ability to get a gun in a store for what happened, I guess that's you. Trust me, he'd have gotten what he wanted regardless. Whether a gun or a small home made bomb, he'd have done it.

Again I'll say. I can get a gun on the corner here MUCH quicker, and MUCH cheaper than at a store. Making them hard to get in the store won't help a lot man. Just makes it harder to get for a person wanting to purchase a weapon legally. Criminals don't pay much attention to these "minor" legalities.

That said, it wouldnt be a bad idea to up the ante on what it takes to get a gun. Although they already do a FBI background check. I guess there can be improvements made without losing too much in the way of rights.

[hippietim]

One thing is for sure, our gun control laws in the US are clearly not effective. I won't pretend to have all the answers but it is painfully obvious to me that something has to change.

I think everyone here knows how I feel about the general populus running amok with guns. What might surprise you is that I am not afraid of them per se and have shot a variety guns many times. I also know based on what I've seen that the vast majority of you with guns would not be able to successfully defend yourselves or your families with your gun. I know of more people than I care to where this did not work out in their favor. Of course this is where you'll tell me you're different and/or those people were idiots and/or didn't know how to handle themselves. Well, for your sakes I hope you never have to find out but if you do, I hope I'm wrong.

The most obvious thing to say here would be to enforce our existing laws. Stop being so nice to fucking criminals. Fuck them. They suck. No deals to get "the big guy". Just keep locking up the little pukes.

While I was getting ready for work this morning the Dr. Phil show was on TV. I didn't catch much but the gist of it was there was some sheriff who was punishing criminals in very creative ways - they were all minor crimes that I heard about - he'd make people walk through town wearing signs about the stupid shit they did, make them apologize, fix the damage they did, etc. There were people actually protesting this guy saying it was cruel and unusual, blah, blah, blah. Well, I don't believe in any religious stuff but I do know that it's a pretty shitty thing to do to spray paint "666" on an outdoor nativity display in front of a church at Christmas time. Those litte dickturds that did it had to walk around town for a day or so with a donkey that had a sign that said "we're jackasses". I say bravo! But some fruitcake lady said the punishment was extreme. What a douche.

[lerxstcat]

Tim, very good points. Perhaps if it was a little harder to get a gun, then the nutjobs wouldn't have one at the moment they snapped. I'm not saying that guns should be outlawed (although it would be interesting to see what happens then), only have a little stricter controls put on them. Maybe even requiring a mental health exam.

FWIW the Va Tech guy bought his at a store through legal means.

It's only hard to get a gun if you use legal means, i.e., the background check. I would not be against a mental health exam per se, but mentally ill people are not stupid and regularly fool professional therapists so that's no panacea either.

Now if someone had had the authority to put this guy under psych evaluation due to the violent writings that prompted his tutor to call authorities, that might have helped. He had a tutor because he was so crazy that students wouldn't go to class when he was there! Yet no one decided to act, or said they couldn't. THAT would be a good change.

Millions of Americans own firearms and never misuse them in a lifetime. I have owned them for most of my life and never used one in anger. I know if I used one wrongly I'd lose the right to own one, so it's not something you casually use or play around with.

If someone drives a car up ointo the sidewalk and kills a bunch of people, are you going to outlaw cars? If I make a bomb out of a propane tank and a box of nails, are you going to outlaw those?

It's the person and the behavior that has to be dealt with at the end of the day.

[Cleveland Metal]

Yep, everyone is all PC and they are terrified to violate the criminal's civil rights or whatever it's called. Gotta love it. Be scared to punish a criminal but have no issue in publicly lambasting and destroying someones career and life over some mispoken words on tv. Hmm..... Interesting how that works huh?

Technically, (as mentioned previously) they already have hefty "add on" penalties for use/posession of a gun in the commission of felonies. So, obviously these criminals are unrealistic in their opinion that they just won't get caught. So, laws really are not effective with these types regardless of the intensity of the penalty. Hmm...

I agree that "many" people are clueless in most aspects of their lives and expecting them to be able to responsibly own a gun and be able to use it OBJECTIVELY and safely is a stretch. But, minimally, mandatory classes to obtain a gun permit would help lessen that issue. Although typically, registration in any extent (which we already have in some amount) would be an infringement on people's rights. But, we're already on the owner list if we purchase a gun anyways and have already given up any semblance of anonymity to the governing agencies really.

I do notice that states the have legislated legal concealed carry laws for citizens have not had major issues with accidents or increased rage type shootings. So, maybe "some" people aren't so dangerous or stupid.

[Spivonious]

They're now saying this guy was on medication for depression. Let's see, depressed people are more likely to endanger themselves or others. I don't have any statistic backing me up on that, but it's common sense. Giving a depressed person a gun simply because they have no flags on a background check = stupid.

Also, just thought of this. The amendment and the other documents mentioned in this thread apply only to citizens, right? This guy was here on a permanent visa. Do resident aliens have the right to bear arms? Just food for thought.

[scotty2]

Eliminating guns from a country as large as the United States is all but impossible. Just a little comparison to give one an idea of the task.The UK has 60 million people. The US however has over 300 million people.

Throw into your equasion the facts that over 30% of households have at least one weapon therein which according to news reports amounts to over 200 million weapons legally held by US citizens. Yes I know that a ban on firearms in the US is unlikely to happen nor would it be justified. Firearms have been part of your way of life for centuries & that is very difficult to change.

The point I was making was that sadly, the type of events that have taken place in Virginia & elsewhere are being repeated. Each time something like this happens, it appears that no one in Government appears to want to stand up & suggest that the issue of gun control is even looked at. Your constitution does enshrine your fundamental rights which I have no problem with, but, I do think that certain parts of it need to be looked at in the context of modern day America & how relevant those original laws are in this day & age.

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread with very well thought out points put across by everyone. If your politicians did this about the issue of gun control it would be interesting to see the outcome.

Cheers, Jock.

[npacheco]

The point I was making was that sadly, the type of events that have taken place in Virginia & elsewhere are being repeated. Each time something like this happens, it appears that no one in Government appears to want to stand up & suggest that the issue of gun control is even looked at.

This is where your wrong. There is strong lobbying on both sides of this issue constantly. Events like this, bring both to the forefront once again.

[scotty2]

Sorry for the error mate, it seems that the constant lobbying by both sides isn't usually reported here.

[npacheco]

That's because it isn't newsworthy and therefore not reported that so-and-so had a meeting with such-and-such senator to pursuade him to ban guns. And in other news, the NRA had a meeting with senator Y to convince him to lower the FBI score needed to get a handgun. Until a celebrity speaks out or someone does something rash to make their point, it will always remain an afterthought.

Even the news is "entertainment", just watch CNN around lunchtime...there's always some kind of chase going on.