The 2nd Amendment

[VitaminG]

Oh, sorry for calling you a yabbo. I was a little upset. lol

y'know, I kind of picked up on that.

I'd rather be called a yobbo than a bogan

[VitaminG]

Um... ok. When the LA Riots happened, what happened to the police? They hid in their police stations... one of them located in the Foothills was attacked by the low rent neighborhood, to the point they had to park a school bus in front of the place, sandbag and man posts with National Guard.

The average citizen, if he called the police during those 3 or 4 days, would have been told "sorry, can't help you". So if the police can't help you, and you're in trouble, what do you do?

Some lucky store owners in that area WERE armed, and guess what? Their stores were not the ones that were looted and burned down.

I never disputed that. Those are just the sort of situations that warrant owning a gun.

I was just commenting on the sad state of affairs that so many people these days, rather than helping someone who is in need, will prey on them instead. Somehow a catastrophic event becomes an excuse to score a free tv or destroy property, rape & murder. The stories that some of the Aussies who were caught up in Katrina told when they returned home were atrocious. In such circumstances, I fully understand anyone's desire to own a gun. Trying to reason with someone who has decided the circumstances excuse them from any kind of responsible behaviour, pleading with them to not hurt your family just isn't going to cut it - they've already decided they're beyond the reach of the law.

And gee, you guys are starting to have your problems too. Imagine if the Cronulla riots turned into the Sydney Riots? If the ethnic immigrants start a riot in major cities, you'll see that you're also not protected by any police. What happens when the Lebanese Wogs start attacking Bogans more often?

Fortunately that whole incident didn't escalate. But the immigrants didn't start the riot. A bunch of racist whites wrapped themselves in the Australian flag and used their "National Pride" as an excuse to beat on a few non-whites at the beach as an act of reclamation. Total bullshit. You'd be surprised at the attacks on muslims & mosques in this country since we went to war in Iraq. Apparently, if a woman wears a berka in the street, or a man appears to be of middle eastern extraction, they must be muslim extremists or Taliban sympathisers. Thank the tabloid journalism for whipping up a frenzy of racial vilification in this country and the dopey bigots who just need a hint of an excuse to start beating on anyone who doesn't look like them. Unfortunately, a bunch of idiot Lebanese kids decided to retaliate. Idiots on both sides.

As far as problems "starting", we've had plenty of problems here, racial and otherwise. Just because you only became aware of it with the Cronulla riots doesn't mean that this was an idyllic oasis beforehand.

Betcha love those Abbos?

Some of my friends are aboriginal. My stepmother is a Torres Strait Islander. I don't know if you're being flippant or serious.

I have no problem with aborigines. As I said, some are friends. I have a problem with anyone, regardless of race, if they want to mess with me. And anytime I've been for a night out, the biggest dickheads I encounter tend to be white. That's not to say I've never had any run-ins with aborigines - I have. But not nearly as often as some drunken white kid decides he wants to start something.

[quote]Oh, and don't get me started about the Australian Aboriginal crime against white Australians. [/quote}

I've been trying to find some kind of statistics on that. Haven't found much so far. Only that aborigines & Torres Strait Islanders make up less than 2% of our population, and almost 15% of the prison population. Disproportionate, eh? So aboriginal crime is certainly an issue.

Yeah, you'll want to shut the fuck up, because I know the BS that's going on over there that you'll want to pretend doesn't happen.

Damn, man. I must living in a bubble. But I'm sure I'm about to find out all about the terrible stuff that's happening around me. I just can't see it.

Okay, you should be more worried about what freedoms are given to you because dictating what my freedoms should and shouldn't be while pretending Australia doesn't have a host of problems it's going to be facing makes you look like a stereotypical yabbo. :p

You sure can read between the lines. I can't see where I was dictating your freedoms. You want to own a big nasty gun, ride your bike without a helmet & drive without a seatbelt, have at it! It was a bad joke in response to you stating that Bush is no friend to gun owners. I guess I should've posted a smiley or something. Although when the red haze of war descends, I don't imagine you'd see the humour anyway.

I can't recall either where I've ever said on this forum that Australia was the perfect society. We have plenty of problems here. It's no utopia. But having lived in the nation's capital, in the outback, on a tropical island, big cities & small towns, and in all the different places I've lived, (as well as having travelled overseas) I can't think of any other country that I'd rather live.

Anyways, go sing your anthem, which oddly has always been as a subject of the UK empire.. well until recently... then you guys just changed the words.

it's funny - I'm sure God Save the Queen has a different melody to Advance Australia Fair. But what would I know - I'm a metalhead

What? To buy a car, you do not need to pass a background check, nor is there a 'cooling off period' that you have to wait before you take delivery of it. A child molester (here and I suppose over there) can buy a windowless box van and leave with it the same day.

No, but if you fail your eye test, or have a medical condition that makes driving dangerous, you won't receive a license to drive.

You're absolutely correct, of course. But I suppose an unconvicted child molester could still buy a gun over there too. Or they could use their charm & a bag of lollies, or a kitchen knife or box cutter to convince their victims to jump in the van. I don't get your point.

Background checks to express your opinion? You're equating owning a deadly weapon to being free to say what you what without fear of official reprisal? So do you think no controls on gun ownership at all is the way to go?

You're not a free citizen, you're a subject of a monarchy that does not trust you any more than an adult would trust a child.

:ROTF: You come out with the funniest shit when you're all worked up. fwiw, The state of US gun laws matter little to me. I'm sure if you guys decide to invade Australia, the military will make sure you're well armed, so whether you keep a buttload of guns under your bed at home won't be a factor. And nowhere in my post did I indicate that I was pro- or anti-gun laws. But you've immediately jumped to a conclusion & gone on the attack, just because I responded to a couple of points in your post.

I'm satisfied with the restrictions on gun ownership here, although by not advocating that we model our gun laws on the US, I'm sure I'll be accused of being a sheep, or a puppet of the "leftist press" over here, or a prisoner of a constitutional monarchy, shaking in my boots as I hole myself up in my barricaded house with bars on the windows, unaware that if I only owned a gun I'd be able to get to the corner store & back to provide milk & bread to my family.

[lerxstcat]

The fact is that the Second Amendment is here to stay. Repealing one of the Bill of Rights? That would signal the disintegration of our government because the armed resistance to that would make our Civil War of 1861-1865 look like a ticker tape parade.

I believe that our military would refuse to enforce confiscation of guns if it meant firing on its own citizens - and it would, no doubt about it.

As for Katrina, we in Mississippi had much less civil unrest than New Orleans did, because more of our law-abiding citizens as % of population were armed and defended their homes. There was some looting but it was mostly of stores, not homes - because they knew they'd be shot.

In New Orleans, a Federal detention center was flooded and the inmates escaped, broke into gun stores and armed themselves. They then preyed on the victims until they were stopped by the military. Some were permanently stopped and deserved it.

When anarchy occurs due to a disaster, both the best and the worst of humankind's nature comes out. Some of those Virginia Tech students that died were probably among hundreds of VT students who volunteered to helpo clean up and rebuild homes for the poor after Katrina. God rest their souls, they did not deserve what happened to them. One teacher armed could have stopped that guy when he started. If the RA at the dorm had been armed it could have been stopped before he started.

[xenophobe]

Oh, sorry for calling you a yabbo. I was a little upset. lol

[xenophobe]

that's a sorry indictment of the state of society in "the greatest country in the world", that anyone should feel the need to protect themselves to that level during a crisis in which you're already fighting so hard just to keep your family alive.

I appreciate that being disgusted by the behaviour of the looters, rapists & murderers who took advantage of others during such a time doesn't make the problem go away, and holding onto a big ol' shooter to discourage someone from fucking with your family would be a great deterent. But man, what ever happened to regular folks pulling together to get through a crisis like that?

Um... ok. When the LA Riots happened, what happened to the police? They hid in their police stations... one of them located in the Foothills was attacked by the low rent neighborhood, to the point they had to park a school bus in front of the place, sandbag and man posts with National Guard.

The average citizen, if he called the police during those 3 or 4 days, would have been told "sorry, can't help you". So if the police can't help you, and you're in trouble, what do you do?

Some lucky store owners in that area WERE armed, and guess what? Their stores were not the ones that were looted and burned down.

And gee, you guys are starting to have your problems too. Imagine if the Cronulla riots turned into the Sydney Riots? If the ethnic immigrants start a riot in major cities, you'll see that you're also not protected by any police. What happens when the Lebanese Wogs start attacking Bogans more often?

Betcha love those Abbos? Oh, and don't get me started about the Australian Aboriginal crime against white Australians.

Yeah, you'll want to shut the fuck up, because I know the BS that's going on over there that you'll want to pretend doesn't happen.

I don't know.... if you want to play with guns, G Dubya has gone to a lot of trouble arranging somewhere for you to play with a whole arsenal of military grade weapons

Okay, you should be more worried about what freedoms are given to you because dictating what my freedoms should and shouldn't be while pretending Australia doesn't have a host of problems it's going to be facing makes you look like a stereotypical yabbo. :p

Anyways, go sing your anthem, which oddly has always been as a subject of the UK empire.. well until recently... then you guys just changed the words.

holding your free speech up to someone's head and pulling the trigger isn't going to spatter their brains across the wall. They will make you jump through some hoops for a driver's licence though, so if your eye-sight, epilepsy or mental acuity makes you a hazard on the roads, they can decide to NOT grant you a licence before you plough your car through a crowded shopping mall.

What? To buy a car, you do not need to pass a background check, nor is there a 'cooling off period' that you have to wait before you take delivery of it. A child molester (here and I suppose over there) can buy a windowless box van and leave with it the same day.

Oh, and look at some of the firearms I've owned for many years, they've never committed a crime and have never shot anyone.






You're not a free citizen, you're a subject of a monarchy that does not trust you any more than an adult would trust a child.

[VitaminG]

Hurricane Katrina showed a great number of people that being armed was necessary for survival.

that's a sorry indictment of the state of society in "the greatest country in the world", that anyone should feel the need to protect themselves to that level during a crisis in which you're already fighting so hard just to keep your family alive.

I appreciate that being disgusted by the behaviour of the looters, rapists & murderers who took advantage of others during such a time doesn't make the problem go away, and holding onto a big ol' shooter to discourage someone from fucking with your family would be a great deterent. But man, what ever happened to regular folks pulling together to get through a crisis like that?

Bush has been no real friend of gun owners.

I don't know.... if you want to play with guns, G Dubya has gone to a lot of trouble arranging somewhere for you to play with a whole arsenal of military grade weapons

So you should also support a reasonable control on free speech. Like having to pass a test, background check or obtain license to be able to post an opinion publicly?

holding your free speech up to someone's head and pulling the trigger isn't going to spatter their brains across the wall. They will make you jump through some hoops for a driver's licence though, so if your eye-sight, epilepsy or mental acuity makes you a hazard on the roads, they can decide to NOT grant you a licence before you plough your car through a crowded shopping mall.

[xenophobe]

This really just proves my point. I was just pointing out that these groups have low numbers of membership and not much in the way of money compared to the NRA, in spite of the fact that there has been a plurality or majority of people supporting stricter gun laws in the gallup poll I cited.

You're misguided. NRA has a strong grassroots movement. MMM and Bradyites are funded by multinational corporations. If you hadn't noticed, the anti-gunners have all the money to spend on commercials and print media, while NRA achieves most of it's victories by focusing it's members to actually contact their representatives.

Despite having more money, the anti-gunners have been losing ground on gun control in the past decade, you should really look closely at the 'poll'.

The anti's just stomp their feet and yell loudly. They make their numbers look bigger by screaming louder. That is the way of the progressives.

Gun regulation people just aren't as serious as gun people, even though they outnumber them. I was really just pointing this out because somebody cited a conspiracy by the media and the government to take our guns away or something like that. I just don't see it, and I think it is a big stretch to call anything a conspiracy that has such wide support.
And as you have pointed out, gun laws are getting much less strict, as opposed to stricter.

The anti-gunners are losing because of their combined ultra-progressive agenda, along with many other factors. Hurricane Katrina showed a great number of people that being armed was necessary for survival.

By the way, I know you were joking about the DNC, but as I have pointed out, the Democratic leadership has largely given up on gun control. Harry Reid has said that there will be no new gun control laws in response to what happened at VT, John Kerry made an obvious and laughable attempt to court the pro-gun crowd in the 2004 election with no such nod to the gun conrollers, no new gun legislation in 13 years, etc.

A great deal of Democrats are pro-gun. A large number of them won't touch gun issues because it will piss off their constituencies. The Democratic leadership is not in touch with the traditional Democrats.

Bush has even said he would sign the assault weapons ban if presented to him by congress. No such bill has been offered even though it has come up for a vote several times. Maybe you should point the fingers at the Republicans? Why didn't they remove any restrictions on guns in the 6 years they had control over every branch of federal government?

I do point my fingers at Republicans. Bush has been no real friend of gun owners. Rudy Giuliani is anti-gun. So is Romney...

Although the cynical side of me says that the Republicans have taken care of "second amendment rights" for generations to come by packing the supreme court with conservatives. I have no doubt that if it comes up, they will find that the 14th amendment applies to the 2nd without any problems and that gun laws will have to change to accomodate this. I think this is funny because some of the conservatives on the court hate the 14th amendment and only seem to cite it when convenient.

2nd Amendment incorporation with the 14th was implied during it's drafting, though it's never been actively settled by SCOTUS. As a gun owner, yes I want this settled. The 2nd Amendment is clearly an individual right, and anyone who says otherwise ignores the complete historical background in which it was drafted.

The 14th Amendment was drafted by a Republican and was supported by the conservatives, and vehemently opposed by southern Democrats. And as much as it is touted as being created to establish and protect the rights of freed slaves, which the Civil Rights Act in 1866 actually did, the 14th was much more focused on protecting all rights of citizens in the various states from state abuse, which was happening regularly. Even Wikipedia's analysis of the 14th is wrong, because it doesn't differentiate the proposed 14th Amendment before and after the Citizenship Clause was added.

As a final note, I realize I am new here, so I would like to say that I am not trying to pull anybodies chains. I am not an anti-gun crusader, but I believe it does disservice to the many citizens of this country who support reasonable gun control to say that there is some kind of conspiracy to take your guns away. We are still a democracy (actually a constitutional republic, but whatever) so like it or not, you have to deal with majority opinion, even if it runs contrary to yours. Please forgive a newbie!!!

So you should also support a reasonable control on free speech. Like having to pass a test, background check or obtain license to be able to post an opinion publicly?

[lerxstcat]

Christians are not perfect in following the teachingts of Christ. This is often repeated in Scripture, which is why it's odd that non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect paragons. Especially when those non-Christians profess to not even believe, yet expect perfection from Christians.

I have no doubt that God will forgive my sin for killing a criminal who is trying to harm me and my family. He will understand that the motive was to protect innocents. I would never stand by and let the intruder harm my family just because of that verse. I would rather suffer the consequences of that "sin" if God does judge it a sin.

I just wanted to put that out there, since I live about 15 minutes from where it happened.

And the full quote of Ted still implies that God gave us the right to bear arms, which simply isn't true at all. This excerpt from the Bible proves that:

[rjohnstone]

There's a difference between being robbed and being killed.
I have insurance... take what you want.
Threaten my life or my family and it's old testament time.
Eye for an eye.

And one could also flip the statement. "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Far be it from me to defy the Bible. I will do unto the asshat as he is trying to do unto me.
See my point.

[Spivonious]

I just wanted to put that out there, since I live about 15 minutes from where it happened.

And the full quote of Ted still implies that God gave us the right to bear arms, which simply isn't true at all. This excerpt from the Bible proves that:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

[rjohnstone]

Like I said... Ted gets a bit worked up.
I like how the anti-gun folks chop up a statement and extract what they want to hear.

Ted actually said "People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones."

A little over dramatized by Ted, but that statement holds true to it's intent.

[Spivonious]

Uncle Ted has spoken.
God I love listening to him. He cracks me up, but he makes some very good points.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html

Rock on Ted!

Just a correction for the linked article: the Amish school was out in the middle of farm country. There are no restrictions on guns there. The school itself was a one-room schoolhouse. Amish children typically don't bring guns to school.

I like this response to the editorial:

John Thatamanil, Nashville, Tennessee
"A God-given right to bear guns?" Dear Mr. Nugent, which God, pray tell, are you speaking about? Surely not Jesus, you know, the one who said, "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Frankly, I find Mr. Nugent whatever God he claims to worship terribly frightening. Stick to rock, Mr. Nugent, you are terrifically good at that!

[rjohnstone]

Uncle Ted has spoken.
God I love listening to him. He cracks me up, but he makes some very good points.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html

Rock on Ted!

[Spivonious]

Wow, this is probably the only thread I've ever started that approached 200 posts. On any board, ever.

I don't have anything new to add, I just wanted to say that it is very interesting and thought-provoking to read everyone's responses.

And welcome to the JCF Marcus!

[AK47]

Screw the NRA they screwed alot of us gun owners by pushing there own political agenda...

All I can say if you can buy weed on the street than you can get yourself a real nice crappy gun illegally too...

One last thing the Korean kid was not a citizen of this country so how did he get his handguns I thought the right to bear was for citizens...

Just a few randow thoughts...

I like what the JFPO has done for gun owners recently...