Firearms

[danastas]

But, posters outside the US are still wondering what is it that makes US society so different (and more violent) than theirs.

I do agree that the problem is not necessarily guns, but a socio-economic problem.

Look, no one can deny that the US has more poor people per capita than other developed nations. Also, the US spends more on its military. We even spend more on education and health care (per capita) than any developed nation. We also are a more multicultural country than any other nation except Canada, and that causes problems in and of itself.

A small example that shows how violence happens in the US: during the 1990s, Clinton funded a lot of after school programs for teens. In the last 7 years, these programs have been shut down for lack of funds. On my side of town (West side of Buffalo) you see a lot of teens hanging out in the street. Crime is way up on the West Side, and this is happening while Buffalo is finally experiencing a resurgence of investment and new business after three decades of neglect. invariably, the people doing the shooting on the West Side are 14 and 15 year old, sometimes 16, but 90% of it is most definitely by teens under 17. They are bored. And poor. And they're trafficking drugs.

In Europe, you have to wonder, what would the poor parts of your cities look like if there were a ton more poor people. Imagine a lot more ILLEGAL guns on your street. Then people take up arms to protect themselves, and the vicious circle begins. I think a European would start to understand what it means when the genie is let out of the bottle.

[Endrik]

Japan's crime rate is one of the lowest in the world, but most of the crimes there are very violent and made by young folks... who go to school.... they kill because they are bored... or pissed off.

In eastern europe/west asia there are countries wich are way bigger shitholes than the meanest ghettos in US... there nations where most of the people are very poor, but they don't go shooting other people... they live in conditions wich were in the year 1250.

[danastas]

Japan's crime rate is one of the lowest in the world, but most of the crimes there are very violent and made by young folks... who go to school.... they kill because they are bored... or pissed off.

In eastern europe/west asia there are countries wich are way bigger shitholes than the meanest ghettos in US... there nations where most of the people are very poor, but they don't go shooting other people... they live in conditions wich were in the year 1250.

Let's get specific here. Where in Eastern Europe are people starving? Where in Eastern Europe are there bigger shitholes and meaner ghettoes than inner city US shitholes. Show me. Everything I've read about this so far shows that the US is at the bottom of the list when it comes to living conditions for its poor, its alongside 3rd world countries that have VERY high crime. The only countries in the US orbit that are not 3rd world (2nd world?) are Brazil and Mexico,

[toejam]

this is why the US scares the crap out of me. Why does every one need a fucking gun?

Don't you live in Florida?

[Endrik]

Let's get specific here. Where in Eastern Europe are people starving?

hard to be specific, there are bums everywhere... but what I metioned was poor people.

Where in Eastern Europe are there bigger shitholes and meaner ghettoes than inner city US shitholes

yet again I can't be specific at this point because I hardly recall mentioning about meaner ghettos in Europe.

Show me

Gladly.
Take a car and do a nice trip through the whole Eastern Europe. Some military dude who was from St. Louis and did seminars in different countries about defense systems and whatnot did the trip and said he had no idea how bad it is in the East.

I live in the best part of Eastern Europe... in the North wich is surrounded by wealthy Scandinavia. It's an ok place. A couple of years ago the average wage here was about 300 bucks per month wich is about 4 times less than in decent places like Finland or Norway. And concider that the food and clothes are more expensive here than in US.
The places wich aren't "ok".... we are like Norway to them and they are like Estonia or maybe even worse.

It's pretty frightnening when you visit all the countires near the Black Sea or near the Serbia.
The big cities can be somewhat ok, but most of it is... well... it's endless amount of nothing. Tons of weird villages wich look like war zones or camping sites from 1200 BC. The people really don't have much anything. They get by... by doing very hard and primitive work.

You can see this shit everywhere... Moldova, Romania, Belarus etc.... or even big and well known places like Poland or Ukraine look like dumpsters most of the time.

But it's like paradise compared to the "Stans" in West Asia... you know Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan etc. but they are also fairly good places compared to Myanmar. There's always something worse out there.

[Tetsuo]

I learned alot from this thread. Just because I am safe doesn't mean we all are. I am cool with that and although I think talking is better than arming.. after reading these reponses.. I sort of get where you guys are coming from. JG

Sadly you prolly only think you are safe. I have a situation here where a wise guy and two of his friends beat nearly to death a kid who was in the marines and on leave because he said something to the wise guys son. Now the wiseguy has already locked up his alibi and my friend who witnessed it (only because he happens to live in the same well to do neighborhood) now is in hiding. Now this neighborhood is loaded with federal agents too. Another friend of ours his father was on the task force for the FBI on organized crime. We reported it to him (he is retired) and he sent it to the higher ups but there is nothing that can be done at this point. This is one of the nicest neighborhoods around. I grew up in a LE family tied to the mob. None of us are safe it is an illusion and it is sad. I hate that guns are out there but reality sets in so I have one locked up in my closet and I know how to properly use it. I have no reason to need it today but maybe tomorrow I see a cop getting paid off like I did when I was 19.

[Tetsuo]

Yeah, the problem is mostly socio-economic.

Typically, You have your criminals that are armed to help them in their predation. Then you have your people that have to live close to them and are generally cool, but are scared, so they arm themselves, but aren't so well versed and are the glut of the accidents.

Then you have people like us here, that are reasonably educated, and are aware of the situation and arm themselves. We, are basically the safest ones out there with guns I figure.

I'm glad to say, from what I see here, most of the people responding here are very well versed, educated, responsible and safe.

Generally, it's really a sad situation. And quite a vicious circle. What sucks is, it's not a game where you can say "I'm not playing", short of moving somewhere safe. And we ALL can't do that.

Tell me where is that someplace safe?

[danastas]

hard to be specific, there are bums everywhere... but what I metioned was poor people.



yet again I can't be specific at this point because I hardly recall mentioning about meaner ghettos in Europe.



Gladly.
Take a car and do a nice trip through the whole Eastern Europe. Some military dude who was from St. Louis and did seminars in different countries about defense systems and whatnot did the trip and said he had no idea how bad it is in the East.

I live in the best part of Eastern Europe... in the North wich is surrounded by wealthy Scandinavia. It's an ok place. A couple of years ago the average wage here was about 300 bucks per month wich is about 4 times less than in decent places like Finland or Norway. And concider that the food and clothes are more expensive here than in US.
The places wich aren't "ok".... we are like Norway to them and they are like Estonia or maybe even worse.

It's pretty frightnening when you visit all the countires near the Black Sea or near the Serbia.
The big cities can be somewhat ok, but most of it is... well... it's endless amount of nothing. Tons of weird villages wich look like war zones or camping sites from 1200 BC. The people really don't have much anything. They get by... by doing very hard and primitive work.

You can see this shit everywhere... Moldova, Romania, Belarus etc.... or even big and well known places like Poland or Ukraine look like dumpsters most of the time.

But it's like paradise compared to the "Stans" in West Asia... you know Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan etc. but they are also fairly good places compared to Myanmar. There's always something worse out there.

Well, those are third world countries at the end of your post. I was comparing the US to first world developed countries, and even second world countries.

I think you're deceiving yourself in the sense that the US has the highest divergence between wealth and poverty in the world. It's a lethal mix. If you're a dirt farmer in the middle of nowhere Afganistan, what is crime gong to get yo? Your neighbor's dirt? But a block away from me in the US there are starving 4 and 5 and 6 year olds. I'm not exaggerating. What are people going to do to eat? This doesn't excuse them. This is the reality. The US is set up as a capitalist's paradise, and those who don't capitalize do not have much of a social safety net, as they do in other 1st world countries. These simply facts explain a lot of the violence that exists here. I don't think many Europeans realize or understand the level of poverty in the US that coexists with wealth. If you go on food stamps, that means you have $21 to live on for food that week. In the innercity, without transportation, with grocery stores charging a lot more than in the burbs, $21 may get you through on tripe until Thursday, but what are you going to do on Friday and Saturday?

[Endrik]

hey, I understand you complitely, different "groups" aren't so mixed up in the same place in Europe as they are in US.

the most extreme (in social difference) is probably in central Asia though.... India for example... some cities are full of incredibly poor folks and in the middle of them there are "castles" full of incredibly rich people. Not much average folks. Rich and poor.

[AK47]

Well, those are third world countries at the end of your post. I was comparing the US to first world developed countries, and even second world countries.

I think you're deceiving yourself in the sense that the US has the highest divergence between wealth and poverty in the world. It's a lethal mix. If you're a dirt farmer in the middle of nowhere Afganistan, what is crime gong to get yo? Your neighbor's dirt? But a block away from me in the US there are starving 4 and 5 and 6 year olds. I'm not exaggerating. What are people going to do to eat? This doesn't excuse them. This is the reality. The US is set up as a capitalist's paradise, and those who don't capitalize do not have much of a social safety net, as they do in other 1st world countries. These simply facts explain a lot of the violence that exists here. I don't think many Europeans realize or understand the level of poverty in the US that coexists with wealth. If you go on food stamps, that means you have $21 to live on for food that week. In the innercity, without transportation, with grocery stores charging a lot more than in the burbs, $21 may get you through on tripe until Thursday, but what are you going to do on Friday and Saturday?

I dont think you are aware of how nice the welfare and social programs are both federal and state especially here in California.

Seriously how many deaths in the US have we had of starvation this year? almost none.

Do you actually know any poor people? Its a serious question not rhetorical.

All the people I know are poor and its alot are very poorly educated and tend to collect SSI as well as have some sort of drug problem. In Eastern Europe you dont have that, a drug problem is a luxury, so to speak.

If you are on the streets homeless in the US now a days its a choice they have social programs for all walks of life.

To me it seams as thought its the public school systems have failed these people as well as broken homes alot of low income families come from.

My 2 cents.

[danastas]

I dont think you are aware of how nice the welfare and social programs are both federal and state especially here in California.

Seriously how many deaths in the US have we had of starvation this year? almost none.

Do you actually know any poor people? Its a serious question not rhetorical.

All the people I know are poor and its alot are very poorly educated and tend to collect SSI as well as have some sort of drug problem. In Eastern Europe you dont have that, a drug problem is a luxury, so to speak.

If you are on the streets homeless in the US now a days its a choice they have social programs for all walks of life.

To me it seams as thought its the public school systems have failed these people as well as broken homes alot of low income families come from.

My 2 cents.

Yeah, I live in a poor area of the city. By choice. I know a lot of poor people. And kids starving in the US is a hidden but pervasive problem. I talk to people on food stamps. And i know that it doesn't provide enough food to survive on. Welfare hasn't been adjusted for inflation in a long time.

Look at the stats. The number of people falling under the poverty line has skyrocketed. It's not a choice. Not at all.

Kids are starving. Are they dying? Well, when you're starving, you're also getting sick, because you don't have the nutrients to combat illness. Look at our mortality rates for kids in that age range. They are sky high! compared to other developed nations. So, indirectly I would say, Yes, kids are dying of starvation. About the only premium service a poor person in the US receives is health care (medicaid is top notch). The money is there for education too but the quality isn't. Social assistance is at 1980s rates. I'm not saying it should be pumped up, but really I don't like to see people starve either. I'd be for an increase in food stamps. A human being in the inner city can't get by on $20 a week. You just can't.

[Cleveland Metal]

Tell me where is that someplace safe?

John Cables house!

[Brick]

Well, if you don't have a way to protect yourself, you consider that safe? I can't see that logic. At all...

If everyone "possibly" might havea gun, I suppose that would make the average scumbag think a bit before he does something bad to someone.

Seems nuts to think that way, but you're just not gonna get the guns away from the criminals, ever. You really have little choice but to be prepared and have some defense.

If you can't slightly understand that, then that's just silly. But, seeing your other posts, I understand.

Whats the suposed to mean? ahhhaahahahaah Well seams to me that there is more likely to be gun crimes if there more guns. Maybe thats just me.

I have to say this a very interesting thread and its interesting to hear other peoples perspectives.

And no i don't live in florida or the states why do you think that? I live in Canada and i'm just trying to understand why americans think that guns will make them safer and obviously its unfortionate that people think that they have to have a gun to protect themselves whether or not its really nessisary.

[YetAnotherOne]

Whats the suposed to mean? ahhhaahahahaah Well seams to me that there is more likely to be gun crimes if there more guns. Maybe thats just me.

I've heard folks who study these things seriously say that in order to significantly reduce the number of gun crimes in the United States you'd have to reduce the pool of available weapons below the 1,000,000 mark. IIRC as it stands today there are roughly 300,000,000 guns in circulation here.

The impact of additional gun sales on gun crimes is probably very marginal at best given that the overwhelming majority of guns in the US are in the hands of law-abiding people. Ditto the impact of gun-control laws which typically have little effect as they merely remove guns from the posession of law-abiding folks while never taking enough guns out of circulation to have any impact on the criminal element.

[Cleveland Metal]

Impressive info there...