All you interested in WWII .

[Frigo89]

that Native guy was THE badass

[VinceV]

that Native guy was THE badass

I thought that was cool, when he said something along the line of. You are looking at the last Plains Indian Warrior Chief.

[Argos]

Cool, like I said, I read something that made me think you weren't. Not a slam.

No worries homie...I am curious what crap came out of my mouth that made you think that, though

[Rsmacker]

I care. Because I sat across the desk from WWII Army Capt. Jim Morris in the late 80's. He would talk to me. He was in Europe and he told me this; " The SS troops would fire all their ammo and then surrender. That worked once and then our troops just shot them dead." He was the most complete nicest person I have met.

Were these troops under his command? Was he pulled up for War Crimes? (Somehow I think not!)

[Rsmacker]

Argos,

If you are talking about racism toward Japan, then you may have a point
If you lived to fight in some of these pacific battles, you probably would spew a few "non-PC" statements about the people as a whole you dealt with and who killed your brother soldiers.

You have to remember too that it was part of basic Allied training, ie. Official Policy, to indoctrinate our troops that the Japs were sub-human bucktoothed yellow monkeys. It was well-known that the Japanese would not roll over and surrender, were fanatical to the last man and believed in the Divine Will of the Emperor. We had to wage Total War in the Pacific, and had to instil the belief that the Nips were not people like you or I, but animals. No quarter was to be given or expected. (Uncomfortably like the Nazi indoctrination of their troops towards the Russians!)

Look up some of the training films of the day, they are incredible! Back them up with liberal footage of the Rape of Nanking, and the knowledge that comrades were held in brutal captivity by the Japs, afforded nothing like the humane treatment of POWs in Europe (the Japs believing that anyone who surrendered wasn't actually human any more) and you have a good idea why Allied troops might have slightly erm, un-PC views of their enemy. They sat through hours of that stuff, in preparation for the fighting ahead. The Top Brass knew if they went in with the same attitude as when fighting European enemies, they'd be mincemeat in no time. There was none of this surrendering when things got untenable, and then going and sitting out the war in a POW camp, they HAD to be made aware that the Japs would not treat them honourably, nor would they see sense when they were in a hopeless situation and come out with the white flags. Allied troops had to realise that a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Jap still had to be treated seriously and not given an opportunity to pretend to surrender then set off a grenade. Better to kill him, and the only way ordinary normal men can do that is if the enemy has been de-humanised. That's not racism, that's ensuring your troops don't get suckerpunched by an enemy who has nothing like your own principles.

Personally, I think the Japs got off lightly, they have nothing like the sense of national guilt the Germans have. I believe they have yet to even officially apologise for their aggression, and refuse to apologise or compensate former POWs mistreated in captivity. Their aggressive recent history is NOT taught to schoolkids, and they consistently ignore any reference to their conduct in Manchuria and Nanking. Hirohito should have been made to dance on the end of a rope, Saddam-style.
Instead, we rebuilt their country, set them up in business, and helped them better our domestic industries, "Made in Japan" now being a pretty reliable product, outperforming the original it ripped off. I think they did pretty well out of some "racist" remarks.
My Grandad wouldn't have a Japanese car though, thanks to the way they treated POWs from his town (luckily he was gunning down Wops, not building Death Railways)

[Top Jimmy B]

It's funny you mention the car thing. My grandfather(86) is driving a Hyundai because, "they weren't my enemy." I will never try to understand what he, as an infantry man, witnessed on D-Day or any other day in that war. Much respect.

[horns666]

Yeah, that was the program. I saw the PBS repeat again last week. Those poor guys went thru hell, they were literally skin and bone, shell shock..disturbing stuff.

Those Medics were amazing..unsung heroes man. Unarmed and bullets flying at them. They had to make horrible decisions. To pass on someone calling for you that you knew wasn't going to make it. To assist another who probably would pull thru. I know they took those images and voices to their graves...fucking brave!!

[RacerX]

This needs a new thread.

No, it doesn't

[lerxstcat]

Were these troops under his command? Was he pulled up for War Crimes? (Somehow I think not!)

I'm sure a lot of British troops did the same and nobody talked about it. Much of the SS troops were guards at the death camps, and when the Allied troops came in and saw what had been done to the prisoners, they tended to snap and shoot the guards.

You can say they should have had more restraint, but those shootings don't begin to compare to the systematic horror of the death camps and the other horrors the SS guards inflicted on their prisoners.

[Rsmacker]

Oooooooh, I'm not going to get into the argument about the culpability of the Waffen SS in death camps, but shooting frontline combat troops when they finally capitulate is out of order. And yes, I'm equally sure British troops slotted plenty of unarmed prisoners, history is always written by the victors. (My Grandad told me a story about some binoculars he, erm, "won" from an Italian, which I still don't know whether to believe!)

Waffen SS men carried the can for the whole Nazi regime, it is often overlooked that man-for-man, they were the most successful fighting force in history. They broke the mould and moved fighting techniques forward towards what we know today - they were the first to wear Camo, and were laughed at at first; they trained every man to step into his superior's shoes on the battlefield, meaning advances didn't grind to a halt when an officer was hit, like in every other army of the time. They fought hard and well, and for the most part, were a good honourable foe - British troops surrendering in Greece officially commended SS Totenkopf Division for their chivalrous treatment.

By and large they were feared on the frontline because they weren't going to cave in, the Allies knew they would have a fight on. German troops welcomed the appearance of SS "Fire Brigades", stopping gaps - if it hadn't been for SS troops keeping the Falaise Gap open, the war would have ended in Normandy when German troops near enough routed. SS HitlerJugend kept order, held the line, and allowed a semi-orderly withdrawal, at the cost of huge losses to themselves. (Where my Great-Uncle fell into British hands - hence my intense interest in the Waffen SS)

Alas, the atrocities on the Eastern Front carried out by Anti-Partisan formations bearing SS runes sullied the mostly* good reputation of the SS and linked them forever with the dirty side of warfare, but these weren't the true, classic elite SS divisions.

On all fronts captured SS men were often shot out of hand, as were Wehrmacht Panzer crews who unfortunately wore a Death's Head on their collars, and this was before the wholesale crimes of the Nazis was fully revealed. They were shot for being hard opponents, fanatical and for not giving up lightly, and for their fearsome reputation.

All that aside, I dare say had I been there, having experienced the horror of war, I may well have taken out my anger and frustration out on the enemy, possibly "not seeing" their surrender. Luckily I'll never know exactly what both sides went through in those dark days, thanks to the selfless contribution made by those brave men (and the odd chick).



* I acknowledge Waffen SS formations carried out horrendous crimes for no real reason, such as Oradour and Malmedy, I mean generally.

[horns666]

I think the world needs more good pussy, metal, weed, xannax and put war to bed!!

I'm all for power and shit..but C'mon already!!!

[Frigo89]

I thought that was cool, when he said something along the line of. You are looking at the last Plains Indian Warrior Chief.

yeah, I would be proud as hell to be that man