WTF is wrong the US

[SouthPlatteDemon]

SPD,
I am going to have to disagree with you on this.
We went to Iraq on the FALSE premise that Afghanistan was done and Saddam had WMDs and was supporting Al-Queda. We went there (who really knows why - let's just say the pres had bad info, which is unlikely, but the USA book answer) and destroyed the oppressive and bad gov't that held a disparate nation together much like Marshall Tito did for Yugoslavia. The created an environment that is/was a haven for terrorists and Sunni on Shiite on Kurd vilence with Al Queda thrown in to create entropy.

France probably didn't see the reason to kick the hornet's nest and we yelled commie when they didn't want to kick it too.

France has a lot of contrarian attitude when it comes to US meddling in the world's affairs, but I wouldn't begrudge any nation for not signing up for that one. I believe that South Korea, Britain and others went there because of their belief in our intelligence reports and assurances by our gov't that we'd find WMDs. They are less sceptical of the USA rationale and that is appreciated, but I don't know of any really good explanation of why we are actually in Iraq.

We are there because they (Iraq) don't have any government control and Al-Queda is terrorizing the people and gov't. The Iraq gov't is unable to control the situation because we crushed the dictator that had it under control through methods we found barbaric. The reason we crushed him wasn't for how he treated his people, but because they had weapons that turned out not to exist. This is circular logic and should bother people.

I think we have yet to understand why we are really there. I think it is a big chess game and Iraq could be just one of many moves to stabilize the area.

Perhaps the Iran/Syria connection coming to light will show how important it is to have a large military presence already in the region.

[Bengal]

I think we have yet to understand why we are really there. I think it is a big chess game and Iraq could be just one of many moves to stabilize the area.

Perhaps the Iran/Syria connection coming to light will show how important it is to have a large military presence already in the region.

OK, who's large military? Ours? Sorry, we don't have one...

And why do we have to stabilize the area? Why is that our job? Because we use 80% of the earths oil? So kids should die so we can drive Hummers? I don't see that...

Maybe Iraq needs someone like Saddam to keep those people in line...

[pott]

Shhh the US is the righteous nation and they will free everybody who's oppressed. God told so th Bush remember? He admitted it. Must be true.

[monk]

Dude, I never once said anything about weapons or military training. Try to stay on topic:

France let us down by trying to shift the worlds support of our military action in Iraq. That makes France a potential enemy and thus this boils down to you cuz your the one that is sticking up for Chirac.

Jesus fucking christ and I'm the one that is being called young and stupid.

I´d say you managed to shift that "support" all by yourself. You had all the support you wanted after the attack on WTC, when you decided to go into Afghanistan and catch the people who were responsible.

Bush Jr & Co messed everything up when going into Iraq, without the support of the UN and even without declaring a proper war (it's still not declared as such I believe, but since your president can't even formulate and deliver a complete sentence I would not be surprised if he did not read the constitution before making his decision). Add to that the total lack of evidence for any connection between Iraq and the WTC-attacks whatsoever and you have all the reasons you need for why your support has "shifted". At the same time, we, the "Europeans", have been forced to take care of the ever increasing stream of Iraqi refugees trying to escape the war, that was promised to be over in "about 3 weeks", and all the problems that comes with that. Don't blame us (the "Europeans") for not standing behind you any longer. If you desperately need to go to war, why not invade Mexico, or maybe Canada? Anything as long as you keep that crap on your own turf and not over here.

[danastas]

Dude, I never once said anything about weapons or military training. Try to stay on topic:

France let us down by trying to shift the worlds support of our military action in Iraq. That makes France a potential enemy and thus this boils down to you cuz your the one that is sticking up for Chirac.

Jesus fucking christ and I'm the one that is being called young and stupid.

I don't get this thinking at all. Why are you hung up on blaming France for thinking Iraq is a bad idea when a vast majority of Americans (70%) think it's a bad idea? Why are you holding the French to a higher standard than you are your fellow Americans? And don't say that it could have been a more successful venture if only the French military had aided us, because Rumsfeld went in light purposely. He could have tripled the US forces in the region and stabilized it a lot quicker. French help wasn't needed at all. The only thing we needed the French for was diplomatic cover in the UN, but this war is not popular politically even in the US. I mean, bash John Warner, Richard Lugar, Chuck Hagel, and a lot of others. All of these men are conservative Republican hawks with military credentials, and THEY think Iraq was a stupid idea, and they've blasted Bush for it just recently. Why get hung up on the French?

[horns666]

Well good for Pott ..my man of many flames..

Here's to the Dark Masupial and Anaconda, ..!!!

That helmet looks strikingly familar, patina and all..it's uncanny!

My father gave me a German helmet..which I wear with my cape and speedo whenever the wife wants "TDM"!!

[danastas]

Quite true and a fact I think most people don't know about...

Think about this. Say tomorrow China stood up and said, "We are tired of waiting for our money. All debts are due right now. Today. Pay up." Do you have any idea what that would do to our economy? Would make the Stock Market Crash of '29 look like a pinata birthday party. It would sink our nation. We would be left in shambles. Could very well be the end of the US as we know it...

Think of all the rich money managers who floated that cash out during the last decade, made a huge chunk in commissions, bought huge houses and the like, and meanwhile when it all goes south, they sit in their luxury yachts while they wait for the US taxpayer to bail us out. But the US taxpayer is fighting a war, so instead we have to sell our future to foreign powers. So our children will have this debt hanging over their heads, their future paychecks paying high interests to foreigners who own their ass, and the rich are still sailing in their luxury yachts. For the first time ever the Forbes American list is composed solely of billionaires. Our economy heads south, real income drops, and the heads of corporations are still pulling in 200x what the average employee makes. They invest their money in offshore accounts, get huge tax breaks.

What does this all add up to? Let's face it. A lot of Americans don't give a fuck about the future of the US. They are greedy sons of bitches who would sell their mothers. This is our leadership. You think any of their kids are dying over in Iraq fighting this war? Yeah, right. They are eating Continental cuisine every evening and they are calling us "suckers."

[danastas]

Shhh the US is the righteous nation and they will free everybody who's oppressed. God told so th Bush remember? He admitted it. Must be true.

But pott, you still haven't answered the question. Do you support the taking of lives in the Middle East to render control of natural resources to Western multinational corporations such as British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell?

This is your UK government hat tacitly supports this, and has even made the public case that this is the only way to keep our current way of life afloat.

[SouthPlatteDemon]

I noticed someone started bringing up religion. I'm sure I could troll alot of you up on that subject.

Here's to good times on the internet forums and for playing along.

This doesn't mean that I still don't hate Frenchys though.

[SouthPlatteDemon]

But pott, you still haven't answered the question. Do you support the taking of lives in the Middle East to render control of natural resources to Western multinational corporations such as British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell?

This is your UK government hat tacitly supports this, and has even made the public case that this is the only way to keep our current way of life afloat.

Man you guys really know your shit! I stopped paying attention to all these details long ago.

[pott]

But pott, you still haven't answered the question. Do you support the taking of lives in the Middle East to render control of natural resources to Western multinational corporations such as British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell?

This is your UK government hat tacitly supports this, and has even made the public case that this is the only way to keep our current way of life afloat.

Well I don't pay taxes nor vote in the UK, so I'm a man of no government really Which I prefer that way to be honest, sitting on neither side of the fence is all good for me.

Like I said, I do believe Saddam should have been taken out. But the US is doing just like in VietNam, thinking their help is wanted. Maybe it IS needed, but it's clear some people won't always like a savior and would like to think they can take care of themselves. I'd sometimes like it if France said 'well, this guy is clearly a mass murderer, we're going in' but France has neither the logistical power nor the will to go against the whole world and make an ass out of itself. That and who are we, the US, X or Y country to dictate another country's life?

If they ask for help, go for it. If not, it's tough to stand by and do nothing, but sometimes people just don't need the help.

I'm sad you hate French people southplatte. I'll cry tonight before going to bed, that's for sure.

[Megadeth79]

I don't get this thinking at all. Why are you hung up on blaming France for thinking Iraq is a bad idea when a vast majority of Americans (70%) think it's a bad idea? Why are you holding the French to a higher standard than you are your fellow Americans? And don't say that it could have been a more successful venture if only the French military had aided us, because Rumsfeld went in light purposely. He could have tripled the US forces in the region and stabilized it a lot quicker. French help wasn't needed at all. The only thing we needed the French for was diplomatic cover in the UN, but this war is not popular politically even in the US. I mean, bash John Warner, Richard Lugar, Chuck Hagel, and a lot of others. All of these men are conservative Republican hawks with military credentials, and THEY think Iraq was a stupid idea, and they've blasted Bush for it just recently. Why get hung up on the French?

+1. totally.
I'm currently continuing my Ph.D studies in International Relations department and you seem to be really knowledgeable about the subject. are you also an academician or what?

[danastas]

Well I don't pay taxes nor vote in the UK, so I'm a man of no government really Which I prefer that way to be honest, sitting on neither side of the fence is all good for me.

Like I said, I do believe Saddam should have been taken out. But the US is doing just like in VietNam, thinking their help is wanted. Maybe it IS needed, but it's clear some people won't always like a savior and would like to think they can take care of themselves. I'd sometimes like it if France said 'well, this guy is clearly a mass murderer, we're going in' but France has neither the logistical power nor the will to go against the whole world and make an ass out of itself. That and who are we, the US, X or Y country to dictate another country's life?

If they ask for help, go for it. If not, it's tough to stand by and do nothing, but sometimes people just don't need the help.

I'm sad you hate French people southplatte. I'll cry tonight before going to bed, that's for sure.

Well, we're talking at cross purposes since you seem to believe that the US's stated goal (democracy in Iraq) is the actual one. No, the US's actual goal is one that the UK shares in, and it's no democracy. We can only say this so many times before people believe this: it's about oil.

[horns666]

SPD LOVES this shit..it gives him wood!!!

it's all about $$$ and poon..if you think about it.

It's ALL about the pussy..I can prove that!

[pott]

Well, we're talking at cross purposes since you seem to believe that the US's stated goal (democracy in Iraq) is the actual one. No, the US's actual goal is one that the UK shares in, and it's no democracy. We can only say this so many times before people believe this: it's about oil.

Nah I don't think it's democracy, I didn't mean to put it forward either. Like I said, Bush wanted to go back in Iraq ever since 9/11, even looking for 'excuses' so there's bound to be any other reasons. If only he'd said 'we can't just stand there and do nothing' then maybe he'd have gotten more people with him. Unfortunately it was clear there was a hidden agenda.