WTF is wrong the US

[horns666]

Rich is THE BEST. When it comes to debates. He's JCF's undisputed King. His wisdom and knowlege are second to none. No matter what kind homework you do. Rich WILL pee on that homework, marking his territory, and then make you his bitch. If you want to keep your dignity and rectums intact NEVER attempt to debate El Richio. His awesomness is so much higher than yours. I know never to challange Rich on his own turf..I'll use my talents in other ways..

I'll be Rich's corner manager..just like Rocky I,II,III .."You go get 'em Rock..knock his block off"..see!

[Evol]

Evol,
First off, Bush did lie...

Yawn. See what I mean???

Second, I didn't talk crap about the US. I just said we are really in no position to support a war in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran. We can't clean up New Orleans. Fact...

"Pretty hard I guess for the "best" military in the world. I use that term very loosely."

"Our own economy is in shambles"

"Some of you need to get off the idea that we are still a Super Power"

"I think Bush Jr. was pissed at Saddam for putting a bounty out on Bush Sr. He "fucked" with his daddy. That and the oil. And the propaganda..."

"And the American people fell right in line behind this madman and allowed him to do what he wanted. All the while being blind to what was really going on..."

"We can't seem to do shit right lately. Come on man, take a look around you..."

" Bush was very fortunate that 9/11 happened. It allowed him to do what he wanted to do all along..."

"Must be the body count? Or the fact that the "enemy" after 9/11 wasn't white."



That's the crap I was talking about, you've been spewing it all over this thread.

Third, I don't think I ever said we were losing in Iraq. I may have said we can't win. But really, after all this, I don't want to go back and look...

Oh, but of course not, but fortunately you have help... here I'll do it for you :

"We are fighting a war in Iraq with National Guard members, not full time military. We are not winning that war."

If you wouldn't mind to kindly explain how saying "We are not winning that war" does NOT equal we are losing ???

Fourth, I said way back in this thread that neither party speaks to the way I see it. I have as much distain for the Dems as I do the Republicans. So I'm not really towing a party line, I'm more towing an independent line. Sorry. If the Dems spoke for me, we would have been out of Iraq as soon as they took over...

Funny enough it sure seems with all your U.S. bashing statements you sure seem to come from the far left. Just an observation. And for the record that's ok too, just don't expect people who are proud and think we're doing the right things to not call you down off of your pedestal.

Fifth, New Orleans really needs to be cleaned up. Have you been there? You should check it out sometime. Real tragedy...

Yes I have many times, I have family there actually. A family that I would love to see live for many years without the fear of a nuclear armed Iran, which was/is the topic of this thread, until you injected this into the conversation.

Sixth, As soon as Iran proves it can hit the US with a nuke, I'll start to worry.

Wow, sometimes I have to shake my head when I see people say things like this. Do you not understand that if they can prove it, it's TOO LATE????????? Thank God the people in power and most of the rest of the world understand that and the goal of current actions set in motion are to stop them from getting to that point.

North Korea can't even do that yet.

I wouldn't be so sure, not all delivery systems are missile based.

But maybe you should worry that this administration has done nothing really to make us safer. But I don't lose much sleep over that either. I've said before, the government can't really protect us against this type of enemy...

Like I said, I'm not worried, and I'm glad you're not either, this will be taken care of, we are approaching the point of no return, and the consequences for our future survival will be dire indeed if we do nothing while we still have the chance.

I'm out.

Cya.

[Bengal]

Evol,
First off, Bush did lie...

Second, I didn't talk crap about the US. I just said we are really in no position to support a war in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran. We can't clean up New Orleans. Fact...

Third, I don't think I ever said we were losing in Iraq. I may have said we can't win. But really, after all this, I don't want to go back and look...

Fourth, I said way back in this thread that neither party speaks to the way I see it. I have as much distain for the Dems as I do the Republicans. So I'm not really towing a party line, I'm more towing an independent line. Sorry. If the Dems spoke for me, we would have been out of Iraq as soon as they took over...

Fifth, New Orleans really needs to be cleaned up. Have you been there? You should check it out sometime. Real tragedy...

Sixth, As soon as Iran proves it can hit the US with a nuke, I'll start to worry. North Korea can't even do that yet. But maybe you should worry that this administration has done nothing really to make us safer. But I don't lose much sleep over that either. I've said before, the government can't really protect us against this type of enemy...

Seventh, It's been fun. I'm out. Remember to tip your waitress...

[Evol]

Remind me of something, when did I exactly piss in your cereal?

Not sure, I don't really eat cereal, especially not with piss in it.

So saying that the war in Iraq is a quagmire is not supporting the troops? Is that right?

Nope. I'm saying that you saying our troops are "losing" and that " We are fighting a war in Iraq with National Guard members, not full time military." is not supporting the troops. Let's stick to what you said, mm'kay? Thanks...

I cannot disagree with the administration or else I'm labled as being non-supportive? Is that right?

Nope. Again. The reason I posted your politically charged rants were to try and help you see the error you made when you said I was "towing the party line" and that you weren't.

I'm just getting it straight so I can play by your rules.

I appreciate that. I really do. The only rule I have is no running by the pool, and oh, please wait at least 30 minutes after eating before getting in.

So not wanting them to be over there getting killed is non-supportive?

Nope. Yet again. I'm quite sure noone *wants* them to get killed.

Just trying to figure out what frame of mind your in...

Really? Because it seems to me that you are changing what you said in order to keep arguing about it. You've twisted it all up, but don't worry I can keep tabs on all that for ya if you get confused or forget.

Call me names all you want. That's what usually happens. When you can't beat someone down with your opnion, name calling is next. That's cool. I get that game as well. I just try not to do it...

Oh come now, you've been spouting off all over this thread calling Bush a liar, talking crap about the U.S. and what have you, and you get bent because I call you ignorant for wanting to pretend that a nuclear armed Iran isn't one of the largest issues this country will have to face in the very near future. A fact that the rest of the world seems to agree with and want to deal with? You can choose to ignore it all you want, but it will not go away, but like I said, it's ok ...thank God we have people that are willing to deal with it now and have a good understanding of history and the pattern of a racist, ruthless, genocidal dictator of a country run by fundamentalists. Rest assured it will be taken care of, and you can go about helping clean up New Orleans or whatever you want to do.

[lerxstcat]

Read more closely. Mail fraud (sending a bottle of wine to a friend over state lines) is illegal. It's a misdemeanor. Because they couldn't get him for defaming Monsanto, they searched through the mail, found what he had mailed, and bagged him for it. The actual case is in the Federal courts, and it's being routed under the Patriot Act. He did it. He's going to jail. The point is, they went after him for political speech, and they found a simple minor offense, and they elevated it to treason. That's fascism. And anyone who thinks this is the way things should be is a fascist.

Al Capone was finally busted for tax evasion. Should they have just let him go on with his reign of terror?

Granted your friend isn't Al Capone. Then again, he shouldn't have mailed a bottle of wine if it's illegal. Are they charging him with treason or is that statement histrionics on your part?

[lerxstcat]

Well, first of all, there weren't any Arab nations at the time because the Ottoman Empire encompassed all of the Middle East. But before the Ottomans, there were Muslim nations. Such as Saladin's Empire. But if you read accounts of the crusades, Saladin was a lot more compassinate than the crusaders.

Regardless, I wasn't even showing you where Muslims have been good rulers. I deliberately included Byzantium (a Christian Kingdom) in order to show that multicultural societies have existed in the past over hundreds of years without as much bllodshed as the societies outside of them.

Really? The countries that later became Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco were Arab Muslim nations at the time that didn't always belong to the Ottoman Empire. Morocco never did. In fact, Moorish Spain also existed during some of the period of the Ottoman Empire. All of those regions were ruled by Arab ruling classes, even though the indigenous people were still there. The Ottomans never ruled all of Arabia either.

As for the Byzantine Empire (technically an empire rather than a kingdom), it was multicultural more by default than design. Constantinople was already ancient and had been a trading center before the Romans came along. Still, there was always an "on-top" culture that was dominant.

Edit for facts regarding the Ottoman Empire in North Africa.

[Bengal]

Hey, why'd you edit out the Native American analogy? I'd say if they had the power to take it, then yes! But the Native Americans were not one nation, but hundreds. They fell one at a time and didn't give a damn about the next tribe in most cases.

As for your view on oil, if you can't restate your case it must not be a strongly-held view. But you using the Internet means you participate, so if you disavow the oil culture while benefitting from it you're a hypocrite.

As for the people we piss off, we need to teach them not to fuck with us, and to fear the consequences enough to observe that lesson. Our business is wherever our national interests take us.

I edited out the Native American part because I didn't want to open that can of worms. This thread is already of topic...

So because I'm expecting someone posting on this tread to have actually READ it means I don't stand behind my views? I'll say again, read the whole post. Not just bits and pieces of it before calling me a hypocrite. That's about as lame as it gets...

Of course it's about oil. Duh. There, I did you a favor, you don't have to read all of it, not like you were gonna anyway...

We need to teach them not to fuck with us? I think that's what they are doing to us now. Ever since 9/11. So it goes both ways...

[danastas]

Sounds like he's going to jail for mail fraud to me; if they have him dead to rights then he's guilty of mail fraud, right? He's probably spinning it to make himself a martyr, and since you're predisposed, you buy it.

Read more closely. Mail fraud (sending a bottle of wine to a friend over state lines) is illegal. It's a misdemeanor. Because they couldn't get him for defaming Monsanto, they searched through the mail, found what he had mailed, and bagged him for it. The actual case is in the Federal courts, and it's being routed under the Patriot Act. He did it. He's going to jail. The point is, they went after him for political speech, and they found a simple minor offense, and they elevated it to treason. That's fascism. And anyone who thinks this is the way things should be is a fascist.

[danastas]

I guess you don't know that the Ottomans were an anomaly in the Muslim world and in fact many if not most Arab nations held them in contempt because of it. In fact the Ottomans adopted the Byzantine attitude of live and let live after centuries of both conflict and close contact. It wasn't a typical Muslim outlook. The only other place where Muslim culture was so tolerant was in Spain, for similar reasons.

And when the Muslim rulers of Spain asked their Moroccan brethren for help against the Christian kingdoms, the Moroccans came in, found the spanish Muslims to be corrupt for this tolerance, and deposed and imprisoned them themselves. That is more typical of Islam, not tolerance.

Well, first of all, there weren't any Arab nations at the time because the Ottoman Empire encompassed all of the Middle East. But before the Ottomans, there were Muslim nations. Such as Saladin's Empire. But if you read accounts of the crusades, Saladin was a lot more compassinate than the crusaders.

Regardless, I wasn't even showing you where Muslims have been good rulers. I deliberately included Byzantium (a Christian Kingdom) in order to show that multicultural societies have existed in the past over hundreds of years without as much bllodshed as the societies outside of them.

[lerxstcat]

You really need to go back and read the last 14 pages. If you had, you wouldn't ask about the oil thing. I've made myself quite clear on that...

You still are missing my point. It's not our fight. OK, the Jews deserve to be in Israel. I get it. Once again, I'll state my point. Last time though. It's not our business. We have no reason to supply them with arms and money. If we do, we better understand that's going to piss some people off. Rather elementary, if you ask me. That's my point...

Hey, why'd you edit out the Native American analogy? I'd say if they had the power to take it, then yes! But the Native Americans were not one nation, but hundreds. They fell one at a time and didn't give a damn about the next tribe in most cases.

As for your view on oil, if you can't restate your case it must not be a strongly-held view. But you using the Internet means you participate, so if you disavow the oil culture while benefitting from it you're a hypocrite.

As for the people we piss off, we need to teach them not to fuck with us, and to fear the consequences enough to observe that lesson. Our business is wherever our national interests take us.

[Bengal]

So should we let the illegal immigrants in California declare their own nation, and relinquish US sovereignty? Same basic scenario.

The Jews came back into that country and made it prosper, then the Jordanian Arabs wanted in on that prosperity, indeed to take it over. If they got their wish they'd just let it go back to shit like it was for so many years when they could have had it to themselves if they'd wanted it.

The Palestinian story is just that - a story. They are Jordanian Arabs and have a country, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

As for Iraq, if Saddam hadn't fucked with us vis a vis the Gulf War and firing at our planes as they patrolled the no-fly zone for 12 years, maybe you'd have a point. As it is, if it were up to me, since democracy doesn't seem to work there, I'd arm the Kurds to run the place. We'd right another longterm wrong - the Kurds are the largest ethnicity on Earth without their own nation. And we'd have another ally in the Mideast that would be reliable in much the same way that Israel is.

Why be involved in the Mideast? Yep, oil! If you disagree with war for oil, divorce yourself completely from the use of oil. That means no buying anything that's transported by truck, which is everything you own. Don't want to do that? Then admit that you enjoy the fruits of the system yourself.

You really need to go back and read the last 14 pages. If you had, you wouldn't ask about the oil thing. I've made myself quite clear on that...

You still are missing my point. It's not our fight. OK, the Jews deserve to be in Israel. I get it. Once again, I'll state my point. Last time though. It's not our business. We have no reason to supply them with arms and money. If we do, we better understand that's going to piss some people off. Rather elementary, if you ask me. That's my point...

[lerxstcat]

I see your point. I just don't agree with it...

Yes, the Jews have gone through alot in their time, no doubt about it. Do they deserve their own country? Sure, why not. Do the people living there have a right to be pissed when they are pushed out? Sure, why not. When we support 1 side with billions of dollars and weapons, should we expect people to be pissed at us? People who support the other side? Sure, why not. That's all I'm saying. I belive it's our support of Israel that has put us in the position we are in. Not saying either side is right or wrong. THEY should handle it, not us. Let them figure it out. Same stance I took in Iraq. If the people hated Saddam, let them figure it out...

So should we let the illegal immigrants in California declare their own nation, and relinquish US sovereignty? Same basic scenario.

The Jews came back into that country and made it prosper, then the Jordanian Arabs wanted in on that prosperity, indeed to take it over. If they got their wish they'd just let it go back to shit like it was for so many years when they could have had it to themselves if they'd wanted it.

The Palestinian story is just that - a story. They are Jordanian Arabs and have a country, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

As for Iraq, if Saddam hadn't fucked with us vis a vis the Gulf War and firing at our planes as they patrolled the no-fly zone for 12 years, maybe you'd have a point. As it is, if it were up to me, since democracy doesn't seem to work there, I'd arm the Kurds to run the place. We'd right another longterm wrong - the Kurds are the largest ethnicity on Earth without their own nation. And we'd have another ally in the Mideast that would be reliable in much the same way that Israel is.

Why be involved in the Mideast? Yep, oil! If you disagree with war for oil, divorce yourself completely from the use of oil. That means no buying anything that's transported by truck, which is everything you own. Don't want to do that? Then admit that you enjoy the fruits of the system yourself.

[Bengal]

Arabs have never been the concerted targets of genocide like the Jews have been through much of their history, culminating in Germany's active Holocaust and Europe's quiet complicity in that.

The supposed Palestinians claim to statehood has the same credibility as that of the Aryan Nations in the PNW United States; that is, it's bogus. Their state is Jordan. They're all welcome to live there. They are perpetrating a fraud upon the world. That's my point.

I see your point. I just don't agree with it...

Yes, the Jews have gone through alot in their time, no doubt about it. Do they deserve their own country? Sure, why not. Do the people living there have a right to be pissed when they are pushed out? Sure, why not. When we support 1 side with billions of dollars and weapons, should we expect people to be pissed at us? People who support the other side? Sure, why not. That's all I'm saying. I belive it's our support of Israel that has put us in the position we are in. Not saying either side is right or wrong. THEY should handle it, not us. Let them figure it out. Same stance I took in Iraq. If the people hated Saddam, let them figure it out...

[lerxstcat]

Check my edit. But I'm not sure what your debating. If there was a Palestinian state then? Now? Biblical times? Either way, there is one now and that's the problem they are having over there. Israels denial of the state...

That and they are just as much of terrorists as the other side is...

Arabs have never been the concerted targets of genocide like the Jews have been through much of their history, culminating in Germany's active Holocaust and Europe's quiet complicity in that.

The supposed Palestinians claim to statehood has the same credibility as that of the Aryan Nations in the PNW United States; that is, it's bogus. Their state is Jordan. They're all welcome to live there. They are perpetrating a fraud upon the world. That's my point.

[Bengal]

Thought I'd comment on your edit. Yes, "Palestinian" meant Israeli Jews from the 1850s to the 1940s, as Jewish settlers came into the land of Israel to resettle the ancestral homeland. That homeland had been wrecked and abandoned for centuries.

Only after the Jews improved the land did Jordanian Arabs start moving there, ultimately claiming to be the original inhabitants. You know of course that it's perfectly fine to lie to the infidel according to the Koran, right?

Never read the Koran so I won't speak on that...

The "I was here first!" "No I was here first" arguement seems to not hold water right now. The issue is what it is and it's now coming home to roost. We have to deal with it sooner or later....