Paul Tibbets died.

[shreddermon]

To monk: with all due respect, you should just STFU about what America's "motivations" were in dropping the bomb during WWII. First of all, you're not American, so you can only speculate about why we did what we did.

Second of all: you weren't there and didn't live through the ravages of that war. And neither did I. You, I, or anyone else who didn't live through WWII don't have a freaking clue what was going through the collective minds of US and other allied leaders back then. They did what they did based on the horrors they experienced to date, and based on what they thought was in the collective best interests of their nations and the rest of the free world.

Your entire post is nothing but bullshit revisionist history. You are simply applying your impressions of America as it is today - i.e., engaged in an unpopular war of agression in Iraq - which have absolutely nothing to do with what or why the US did what it did during WWII. And that insults the memories of the people who lived, fought, and died during that war based on what you think of the US's actions today. It's an insult to all people - American or otherwise - that went through WWII. And many of those people - rightly or wrongly - believe that dropping the bomb then sacrificed some to save many, many more.

[442w30]

Unlike Vietnam and every conflict afterward, there was clearly an Evil power to be dealt with in the Axis. They are as closed to the perfect villains as possible. Yeah, Germany and Japan had innocent civilians, but through the 1940s, 50s, and into the 1960s, it was still Japan's fault.

We did and do mutually respect each other (Japan and US) as they truly embraced McArthur and viceversa however no one EVER considered that the aggressive Japanese didn't "earn" the bomb until possibly the mid 1970s.

There was a large contingent of Americans (and still should be) that have no shame in their military victory over Japan. Re-enacting the decisive moment that this happened is not insensitive if taken in context and recognized as a somber and exhuberant moment where victory was one so dramatically. That flash bomb and mushroom cloud is a symbol of the end of the war that consumed the world, changed America and shaped the East, West and Japan.

Of course what happened in that bombing was horrifying, you can second guess the reasoning and target all that you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the men on the mission and the mission itself brought an end to this enormous conflict. That is reason to let it be seen for what it was, a victory. If another target was chosen then it may have been just as successful and only 10k civilians would have died. It still would be just as historic and horrific for those on the ground.

I see no insensitivity in re-enactment, in fact it is a reminder for the witnesses of the importance of the moment.

Do we ask all of the descendants of world shaping leaders/events to contunually apologize to the aggressor? Should we send condolence letters to the British every fourth of July? Send money to France for the steal we got on the Louisianna Purchase?

[StukaJU87]

Re-enacting the dropping of the A-Bomb is about as insensitive and lame as it gets...

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I, on the other hand, would like to have seen it. I had an awesome article years back in an R/C airplane mag of a bunch of dudes who created a hugh set and re-enacted the battle of Midway with radio controlled planes. It looked awesome.

[Bengal]

Why do we need to re-enact it? We have video footage of it. Watch that. This just seems a bit odd to me...

Isn't it like Japan re-enacting Pearl Harbor? Muslim Radicals re-enacting 9/11? Seems kinda like it to me...

I'm not an apologist either. I have no problem with the decision that was made. I just don't really see a need to glorify it. It's not like the Civil War. Like I said, wanna see it? Watch the actual footage...

[Rsmacker]

Should we send condolence letters to the British every fourth of July?

Yes please, that would be spiffing.

Erm, hang on, are you saying we were the aggressors???? Right, you, outside, now.

[StukaJU87]

Why do we need to re-enact it? We have video footage of it. Watch that. This just seems a bit odd to me...

Isn't it like Japan re-enacting Pearl Harbor? Muslim Radicals re-enacting 9/11? Seems kinda like it to me...

I'm not an apologist either. I have no problem with the decision that was made. I just don't really see a need to glorify it. It's not like the Civil War. Like I said, wanna see it? Watch the actual footage...

Come on dude. Watching old grainy footage is nothing like being at an air show and getting to see these beautiful machines up close and personal. The sound of the engines. The smell of the exhaust. Awesome. I have been around and in my share of military aircraft, ships, tanks etc. and I can tell you there is nothing like the full experience of being there.

Do we NEED to re-enact it? No. But why should we have to apologise if we do?

If the Japanese or Muslims want to re-enact stuff on THEIR soil, let 'em have at it. I, for one, would not demand an apology.

[monk]

To monk: with all due respect, you should just STFU about what America's "motivations" were in dropping the bomb during WWII. First of all, you're not American, so you can only speculate about why we did what we did.

Second of all: you weren't there and didn't live through the ravages of that war. And neither did I. You, I, or anyone else who didn't live through WWII don't have a freaking clue what was going through the collective minds of US and other allied leaders back then. They did what they did based on the horrors they experienced to date, and based on what they thought was in the collective best interests of their nations and the rest of the free world.

Your entire post is nothing but bullshit revisionist history. You are simply applying your impressions of America as it is today - i.e., engaged in an unpopular war of agression in Iraq - which have absolutely nothing to do with what or why the US did what it did during WWII. And that insults the memories of the people who lived, fought, and died during that war based on what you think of the US's actions today. It's an insult to all people - American or otherwise - that went through WWII. And many of those people - rightly or wrongly - believe that dropping the bomb then sacrificed some to save many, many more.

Since you were not there either, by your own reasoning you may as well (with all due respect, of course) just STFU () yourself then since you are speculating just as much as I am.

All I say is that I don´t think you can justify the bombings further than that it "was the best thing for the US" at that time. I also say that I am totally fine with that, and that I do not want you to justify it any further.
What is so horribly wrong with that, forcing you to tell me to STFU?

Also, since I am not an American and can not understand how you think, can you answer why the US is

A) The only country to actually gain from taking part in WW2 (financially, politically and militarily/territorially)

and at the same time

B) The only country who still spends a lot of time trying to unconditionally justify and glorify its actions to the rest of the world.

Do you feel guilty? Or does the rest of the world force you to do it? I just said that I personally do not want you to justify anything, but maybe others are different. Or is there another reason?

The only thing the Iraq war has in common with WW2 is that the glorification/justification process is the same. It all ends up in obscure reasoning such as why X should kill Y so that Z may live, and why X should have the power to kill Y on behalf of Z in the first place etc etc ad infinitum.

I also do not buy the "insulting the WW2-veterans"-speech since there is a difference in attacking the soldiers themselves and attacking the politicians and their actions and decisions. Politicians and soldiers could not be any further from each other in that sense, I believe.

[Bengal]

Come on dude. Watching old grainy footage is nothing like being at an air show and getting to see these beautiful machines up close and personal. The sound of the engines. The smell of the exhaust. Awesome. I have been around and in my share of military aircraft, ships, tanks etc. and I can tell you there is nothing like the full experience of being there.

Do we NEED to re-enact it? No. But why should we have to apologise if we do?

If the Japanese or Muslims want to re-enact stuff on THEIR soil, let 'em have at it. I, for one, would not demand an apology.

OK, I see the point about seeing the plane. Your right about that. But what can you get from a weak re-enactment of this? Is the mushroom cloud to scale? Did it explode before it hit the ground? Did they even drop anything out of the plane? Or was it just timed out? Plane flys over, flip the switch, big mushroom cloud?

My take is nothing can be learned by this type of staging. Wanna see the event? Watch the footage. Wanna see what kind of plane dropped the bomb? By all means, head to an airshow...

I prefer my history lessons from a bit more reputable source...

I never said we should apologise. I just said it was lame. Still think so...

[shobet]

As all my friends in the forces say, the best advice is to stand behind the Americans.

[monk]

Shreddermon:

On a second thought, it is just pointless trying to debate this and we will only upset each other in some way. I am sorry if I offended you with my earlier post.

[fett]

All I can say is yikes. And maybe a bit more. Europe would not be the Europe we know today without the United States both in WWI and WWII. Asia would not be the same without the US drive to end the domimation of the Japanese Empire. Yeah, Russia played a big part in Europe. That's another story. But to think that Russia would have helped defeat Japan is a stretch. The Germans were about to devolope a "Bomb". And so were the Russians. We beat them both on that count. The fire bombings of Japan and Germany took way more civilian lives than the 2 "Bombs" over Japan. Revise this. The total horror and devastation that those "Bombs" wrought (sp) in seconds is one reason why we have never seen that done again. It took a real application or two to understand just how awful that weapon is. I grew up in the '50's and the most vivid dream I ever had was seeing a mushroom cloud over the hill I knew as home. I will never forget that. And, I just wonder how many 50+ years old dreamt the same thing.

[thetroy]

The fire bombing killed more people that day but if you extend it to see who died after a year or so the bombs killed more. And Russia did declare war on Japan exactly when they said they would (August 8, 1945).

[Rsmacker]

I think that was all the acid you lot were dropping Fett.

Actually the Russians were forming up to give the Japs a good slapping, like they did in 1939. Stalin had agreed at Yalta that the USSR would get involved in the Pacific War within 3 months of Germany's fall. They duly declared war on Aug 8, pissed through Manchuria and were poised to swallow up great tracts of Asia as well as hopping onto the mainland of Japan months before the Allies were due to be ready.

Truman knew that old Uncle Joe was a troublesome nutter and rushed the atomic bombings along, officially to get the Nips to capitulate before the Allies started Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan, but with hindsight they were also obviously a warning for Stalin to fuck off, a demonstration that the US had the Bomb. The Russians were working hard to develop one themselves but it was all theory for them, they didn't actually know at that point whether it actually could be done. Intelligence rumours of the tests were one thing, actually seeing them used in anger is another. For years the nations at war were all rumoured to be on the brink of some super-weapon or another, but no-one actually produced one, until these bombings.

The bombings stopped Stalin from steamrolling through Asia and kept him in check in Western Europe. It was actually the Russian declaration of war and their rapid successes that spurred the Nips into surrendering, they were after all putting up with huge firestorm raids already. The Bombs made sure they had a good excuse and surrendered to the right people!

Whether you believe the A-bombs were the reason the Nips surrendered or not, they did save many many US and Allied lives, either from invading Japan, or war with the USSR, which was already looking unavoidable.
The world would certainly look different today because Stalin had the drive, men and resources to fight wherever he wanted, the Allies by now were sick of war and just wanted to go home for some peace and quiet. The US would have almost certainly baulked at baling out Western Europe (again), but then they couldn't let Stalin take it all unchallenged. Who knows what might have happened, who would have any stomach for a bitter war. Better the bombings brought that part of history to an end.

[livebiz]

Also, since I am not an American and can not understand how you think, can you answer why the US is

A) The only country to actually gain from taking part in WW2 (financially, politically and militarily/territorially)

and at the same time

B) The only country who still spends a lot of time trying to unconditionally justify and glorify its actions to the rest of the world.

Do you have any factual support at all or are you just a wanker?

Frankly, what we know is that our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, fought and sacrificed in a war they did not seek. Did the US come out of WWII as a true super power? Yes and no one I know would apologize for that.

[lerxstcat]

Great post, Rsmacker! It's good to see someone outside the US who has this perspective on what the A-bombings meant both in terms of Japan's surrender and being about the only thing that could deter Stalin from further aggression. Yeah, it was necessary for a number of reasons.

I think that was all the acid you lot were dropping Fett.

Actually the Russians were forming up to give the Japs a good slapping, like they did in 1939. Stalin had agreed at Yalta that the USSR would get involved in the Pacific War within 3 months of Germany's fall. They duly declared war on Aug 8, pissed through Manchuria and were poised to swallow up great tracts of Asia as well as hopping onto the mainland of Japan months before the Allies were due to be ready.

Truman knew that old Uncle Joe was a troublesome nutter and rushed the atomic bombings along, officially to get the Nips to capitulate before the Allies started Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan, but with hindsight they were also obviously a warning for Stalin to fuck off, a demonstration that the US had the Bomb. The Russians were working hard to develop one themselves but it was all theory for them, they didn't actually know at that point whether it actually could be done. Intelligence rumours of the tests were one thing, actually seeing them used in anger is another. For years the nations at war were all rumoured to be on the brink of some super-weapon or another, but no-one actually produced one, until these bombings.

The bombings stopped Stalin from steamrolling through Asia and kept him in check in Western Europe. It was actually the Russian declaration of war and their rapid successes that spurred the Nips into surrendering, they were after all putting up with huge firestorm raids already. The Bombs made sure they had a good excuse and surrendered to the right people!

Whether you believe the A-bombs were the reason the Nips surrendered or not, they did save many many US and Allied lives, either from invading Japan, or war with the USSR, which was already looking unavoidable.
The world would certainly look different today because Stalin had the drive, men and resources to fight wherever he wanted, the Allies by now were sick of war and just wanted to go home for some peace and quiet. The US would have almost certainly baulked at baling out Western Europe (again), but then they couldn't let Stalin take it all unchallenged. Who knows what might have happened, who would have any stomach for a bitter war. Better the bombings brought that part of history to an end.