Paul Tibbets died.

[fett]

Monk. I ask this with all due respect. How old are you? It is interesting to read the different perspectives people have posting on this thread. And that is a good thing.

[fett]

You aren't going to be Banned.:ROTF: Maybe a time out in the corner. But, we are free to run for now.:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF:

[monk]

Monk. I ask this with all due respect. How old are you? It is interesting to read the different perspectives people have posting on this thread. And that is a good thing.

26

[fett]

I'm 57. My father was 4F. Could not serve. My uncle was a Marine in the Pacific and fought. My generation was raised on how such a wonderful job we did during WWII. Of course, there will questions about who did what to whom and why. But, the bottom line is that the US rose to the threat with unlimited resources and really did end the war on both fronts. And for all of the people that fought WWII to end the Axis madness, I salute you.

[VinceV]

Monk,

1st- I am very aware that Scandinavian does not just mean Sweden. My friends are Norwegian and Finnish and Swedes, so I do know the difference.


It seems you are arguing more on emotion. I am just giving you the facts.

I in no way downplayed Russia's involvement with the war. They suffered horribly at the hand of the Germans, but the truth is 2 factors greatly helped them.

1-Winter, the Germans were not prepared for it or equipped for it and it brought them to a halt. Not opinion, truth.
2-The American involvement in Europe, thus creating a 2nd(Western) front, alleviating the full German War machine against them.

The Russians could not of handled much more full force attack. That is a big reason Stalin kept urging the Allied forces to invade Europe, he needed the relief. Russia could not continue to absorb the losses it was taking. If the U.S did not get involved, at some point Russia would have been defeated or entered into a treaty with Germany. It could not continue with it's losses.

Saying the involvement of the U.S. in the war led to the Allied victory over Germany is not "Ego Stroking". It is the truth.

Like I stated earlier in a post, if Russia was not involved in the war(If Germany had kept to their non aggression Pact). The losses on the U.S. side would have been of course,huge. Very possibly ending the invasion at the beaches of Normandy.

Also as I stated in the Summer of 45, the bomb was headed to Berlin, thus probably ending the war there. So yes the U.S. involvement in the war, was the major factor of the defeat of Germany. Not opinion, truth.

So even if we didn't help the Russians out with the "distraction", we would have probably ended it with the atomic bombing of Berlin.

[lerxstcat]

I just said that I can not understand how you think, but for Christ sake, learn how to put some limit on things. Russia lost 10 million soldiers and just as many civilians fighting Hitler on the Eastern front. I am sure they agree they played no part in the defeating of Germany. It is comments like this that pisses me off, try to at least keep some perspective on things.

Also, read the link I posted above (link). There are a whole bunch of "famous people" giving arguments to why there were other options.

You're putting words into his mouth, Monk. He didn't say the Russians had no part in defeating Germany. He said that America coming in was the key to Germany's defeat, which is absolutely true. It was the extra pressure of the American military and American production of military hardware that went to the British and the Russians that allowed the British and Russians to stand off the Wehrmacht. That is absolute fact.

Without American military hardware the Russians could not have repelled the Nazi armies long enough to build new tank and munitions factories behind the Urals. As said, the Germans could have either crushed the soviet armies or at very least beat them to a standstill wherein the European territories of the USSR would have been Nazi territory indefinitely.

Then Hitler could have turned and finished Britain off. Without American support and with no Eastern front, Hitler could have conquered Britain pretty quickly. In fact why he didn't after Dunkirk is still a mystery, his Anglophilia notwithstanding.

So yes, American involvement in the war was the straw that broke Nazi Germany's back. Saying that doesn't lessen any other nation's part in defeating Germany. It just states the truth that the United States coming in was essential to Germany's defeat.

[monk]

Yes, you are right but that was not how I interpreted his message. Obviously, I overreacted.

[lerxstcat]

Oh, and Monk, saying that the bombs likely saved 6 million or more Japanese lives is not making us Japanese heroes; it simply states the very likely outcome.

In 1945 the Japanese Emperor was a GOD to the Japanese people. They would have fought and died en masse for their god-emperor. If the atomic bombs had not convinced the emperor that they could not hold off the US armies, that land invasion would very likely HAVe cost those millions of Japanese lives, as well as a million American lives.

Why is stating a factual situation suddenly us trying to be heroes to the Japanese? It's not.

However, we DID save YOUR country, which didn't lift a finger to fight, from domination in a Nazi Reich. Perhaps because you are a Germanic people you wouldn't have minded that, though.

Are you upset because we beat the Germanic Reich? Just asking, no offense...

[monk]

You want to know if I am a Nazi? No, I do not think so. Nice try though

Did you read the Wikipedia link I gave you? Especially the part at the bottom? There were clearly other opinions back then on whether the bombings were really "military necessary" or not. There are even theories saying that the Russians was what really caused Japan to surrender, not the bombings. I have no clue what would have happened and neither do anyone else. All theories are post-war constructions created to fit the views of either side. All we know is what really happened.

You bombed the Japanese to save your own men. You did it, it was successful and some people believe it was a horrendous act of "war-terrorism" or whatever the term would be. Just live with it. I do not really give a crap about if it saved Japanese lives or not, and I have stated over and over again in this thread that you are allowed to do whatever you want to guard your own turf.

Why even bother speculating in something you can not prove since there are no time-machines. "Factual" and "likely" are two totally different things. Before stating that you, e.g., "saved anyone" you better stand inside the square marked "factual" and not "likely".

Or should I go on saying that us having to give in to the Germans was Britain's fault? They did not bother to secure the control of the Baltic sea, thus giving the Germans a great advantage and a passage to our doorstep. I can also claim that Narvik (probably one of the most important ports in all of WW2 since it, together with the port of Luleå, supplied most of the iron Germany needed to make their war machine work) falling into the hands of the Germans was Britain's fault since Churchill is said to have had the information needed, but he did not give it to Chamberlain so that he would most likely fail his attempt (which he obviously did). Making Chamberlain look like an idiot then secured Churchill the role as prime minister. Just speculating, of course, but it is "likely".

My problem is that I forget that this is an American forum, and that everything you say is not meant for anyone not being an American. I apologize for that. If you were to visit a Swedish forum you would probably be just as upset about what people say. You have the disadvantage of everyone, American or not, understanding what you say to each other.

[fett]

That's nonsense, Monk. We all know this board is worldwide. I love that. The international point of view is a good thing. You are just barking up the wrong tree. That means there are no raccoons here that are in your tree. But, I am glad that this thread has run as long as it has.

[monk]

Of course it is an international forum, since everyone can understand what you write. You should invent your own language

Maybe you already have. I watched part of the MTV Europe awards and I could not understand a single thing of what that "Snoop character" said :ROTF:

[cdwillis]

If I was the leader of a nation and I saw my enemy drop two atomic bombs and I think I would surrender. Is that not what happened?

[fett]

Monk. Are you attempting to understand us, US, for a doctorial thesis or what? I still haven't understood what you think you are doing here on this thread. It's great that you can type a million words in english and I am sure we are getting you fine tuned. But, if I were me, I would pick a better battle ground.

[monk]

Haha. I actually exceeded the 10 000 character limit when responding earlier. I had to edit some parts out. I suck at formulating my thoughts in a concise way.

What am I doing here? I do not really know. Trying to learn something new, I guess? What are you doing here yourself?

[fett]

Who? Me? I live here. This place is trully a great place to discuss and learn. As long as everything stays civil there is a whole world of ideas, thoughts and opinions that can be shared from the whole world. Including Sweden. Sorry for the cheap shot, but I could not resist.