Gas price Idea

[marcus]

And what, pray tell, do engineers call it when it is impossible for the philistines to implement their design?

Wishful thinking? :ROTF:

Perish the thought! There is no such thing as an unimplementable design. Sometimes, though, defects in the manufacturing process will cause us to have to rethink our designs.

This makes us very angry

My explanation for it is they are the types who hold their fingers three inches apart and tell their better half that it is actually 6 inches.

This is of course an example of a very useful "engineering approximation".

Seriously, I have met some damn excellent engineers in my life. I have picked up a lot from having been around them, and it is pretty valuable stuff to know when I work on various projects. Reggie gave engineers a bad name. He had the 'wall candy' certificates, but lacked practical knowledge. I have some good stories about our clashes. But that can wait for another time...lol!

Mostly, in my line of work, I have interfaced only with other engineers, not manufacturing. The current job I have, designing semiconductor IP, my company sells a virtual product essentially. I don't have to deal with manufacturing at all, only other design engineers. Believe me, I know there are bad ones and good ones. I have some stories too - it is hard to believe that all of these people have college degrees, and most have graduate degrees as well. Don't get me started

[Newc]

Gasoline doesn't contain energy? Are you serious? Try putting in water and see how well your engine runs. Fossil fuels contain a lot of energy in the chemical bonds of the hydrocarbon molecules. It is released when it is burned. Are you really questioning the law of conservation of energy?


I honestly don't know what to say Show us your math!

I said the gasoline chemical itself that comes out of the pump and goes into the tank contains no energy. It's lifeless gas. Theoretical and Potential Energy is not energy, it's Theoretical/Potential, meaning it must rely on outside forces (outside of its own ability) to manifest its potential.
Ergo, the engine, by way of exploding the gasoline, creates energy.

You're implying that energy is stored inside the gasoline molecule merely by the act of molecular bonding, which would be more of a metaphysical attribute. It's like saying the gasoline has feelings, or a conscience. It cannot happen.

The "law" of Conservation Of Energy is one of those things where learned men begin with x and figure out how to make it equal 1+1. They start at the end - the statement - and then devise a mathematical formula to prove their statement. If you can get it by other learned men, and convince them of it, then it is accepted. If it's widely accepted, it's pronounced a "Law".

To say that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred, is to imply that car engines, computers, and even guitars are simply focusing the intangible forces of the universe into a point, or to claim Godhood in that you are releasing pent up energy by sheer force of will.

Are you saying that the atom is like an egg, where when you crack it open all the energy inside is unleashed, yet in the same breath completely ignoring the fact that if such a fragile shell COULD contain that much energy, they would be splitting by the billions every second by themselves?

[rjohnstone]

Newc, a gasoline engine cannot create energy.
It converts one form of energy (Chemical) to another (Mechanical). Without the gasoline, it cannot run. It's just a hunk of metal.
And gasoline is not a "lifeless gas", it's a liquid.

Gasoline (a chemical) contains stored energy.
Chemical Energy is energy stored in the bonds of atoms and molecules.
It is the energy that holds these particles together.
Biomass, petroleum, natural gas, and propane are examples of stored chemical energy.
All an engine does is release that energy and convert it to a mechanical force.
And by your own description of a molecular bond, the Sun and other stars should not exist.
Fission and Fusion are not a theory, they are a fact. Look up in the sky. The evidence is all around you.

[Newc]

Dude, seriously. Think about it. You are saying that gasoline is identical to a tightly-coiled spring.

I did not say a gasoline engine would run without the gasoline. I said the engine creates energy to run itself by exploding the gasoline.

I'm sure there's some activity going on at the molecular level (ions, neutrons, etc) in a drop of gasoline, but it is not enough to classify exploding that drop as releasing pent up energy, or converting that activity to anything bigger than what it is. That would imply that you are multiplying the molecular activity exponentially by converting the air molecules around it into clones of itself; which is to say, you're creating something from nothing, or focusing the intangible power of the universe into a small point in space.

If exploding gasoline could convert the adjoining air molecules to exploding gasoline, all life on earth would have ceased to exist the first time gas ever exploded, because the chain reaction would have been worldwide.

[Tekky]

Newc, rjohnstone and marcus are right. Their statements are based on documented scientific fact.

[marcus]

First Law of Newcodynamics (involves a tinfoil hat I believe)

+1, I should have listened :ROTF:

[marcus]

The "law" of Conservation Of Energy is one of those things where learned men begin with x and figure out how to make it equal 1+1. They start at the end - the statement - and then devise a mathematical formula to prove their statement. If you can get it by other learned men, and convince them of it, then it is accepted. If it's widely accepted, it's pronounced a "Law".

I've gotta say something about this. The law of conservation of energy is very useful, and you have the process backwards here. Some of the most basic tenets of electronic circuit theory are based upon, and easily derived from, the law of conservation of energy. Quite simply, if the law of conservation of energy were as you describe here, no electronic devices would work properly. I have my education, career, and many wasted hours of my life to thank for this fact

As for potential energy, it is every bit actual energy. It does not require an outside force to become energy, quite the contrary, potential energy is stored due to an outside force acting upon it. In the case of chemical bonds, the outside force is electromagnetic force, which can be overcome by adding energy in the form of electricity from the spark plugs and compression by the pistons in an internal combustion engine. See this wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

To explain this any further, we would need to delve into the strange world of quantum mechanics, of which Einstein famously said "God does not play Dice". It also leads scientists to talk about such things as "spooky action at a distance" and other such weird sounding things. To be honest, I don't understand it very much, but then, neither does anybody else.

BTW guys, this thread has been a lot of geeky fun. Anyone care to discuss grand unification theories

[marcus]

Newc, a gasoline engine cannot create energy.
It converts one form of energy (Chemical) to another (Mechanical). Without the gasoline, it cannot run. It's just a hunk of metal.
And gasoline is not a "lifeless gas", it's a liquid.

Gasoline (a chemical) contains stored energy.
Chemical Energy is energy stored in the bonds of atoms and molecules.
It is the energy that holds these particles together.
Biomass, petroleum, natural gas, and propane are examples of stored chemical energy.
All an engine does is release that energy and convert it to a mechanical force.
And by your own description of a molecular bond, the Sun and other stars should not exist.
Fission and Fusion are not a theory, they are a fact. Look up in the sky. The evidence is all around you.

+1, the proof of the physical laws is all around us and they have been very useful in helping us understand the universe. I love to read about science, it is a hobby of mine, and in my more wistful moods I think that I would have really enjoyed going into the hard sciences. But the path to riches, this is not, and honestly 2 years of graduate school was enough for me, so I probably wasn't really cut out for it.

[YetAnotherOne]

Dude, seriously. Think about it. You are saying that gasoline is identical to a tightly-coiled spring.

From an engineer's perspective that's exactly correct. Gasoline, coal, uranium, capacitors, batteries, tightly-coiled springs, hydrogen, blocks sitting precariously at the top of fricionless angled planes, etc., etc., etc. They're all really energy storage media.

[DrDoug]

The coiled spring is a pretty good analogy too. Energy is just waiting for the right conditions to be released. The energy is released when you break the bonds that hold the molecule together. In the case of gas, it is mixed with atmosphere, pressurized and then ignited. The pressurization is a byproduct of the reciprocating mass in action (crank/pistons), which optimizes the contained explosion by packing the air/fuel charge into a small area and then igniting it, releasing its energy in the forms of pressure and heat.

You can measure the BTU value of gas. That means it has energy. Hell, Everclear is energy! Though I still can't figure out why I lose energy after drinking it.

:ROTF: