Things are heating up in the Southeast

[SouthPlatteDemon]

That graph sure is pursuading me to believe that global warming is due to fossil fuel burning. NOT!!!!

Looks pretty cyclical to me.

[marcus]

That graph sure is pursuading me to believe that global warming is due to fossil fuel burning. NOT!!!!

Looks pretty cyclical to me.

The point of the graph is not to convince you of a connection between fossil fuel burning and global warming. It shows a correlation between carbon dioxide levels and global warming. It is undeniable that C02 levels are rising in the atmosphere due to burning of fossil fuels. It is also undeniable that global average temperatures are rising. This graph merely shows that the 2 phenomena are connected going back thousands of years.

[Axewielder]

The point of the graph is not to convince you of a connection between fossil fuel burning and global warming. It shows a correlation between carbon dioxide levels and global warming.

Exactly. Now, you can see that the CO2 levels from the last 400,000 years prior to the industrial revolution never surpassed 300 ppmv. Now, the next graph is the scary one (from Wikipedia) :

[fett]

My point is not that we can figure out what a longterm trend was. C02 or weather patterns. Yeah, we can take core samples and see what happened. My point is that we are 300 Million+ living here. We have populated the East and West Coasts. We are populating the Southwest. We are running out of water. That is a fact. So, what real good does it do for scientists to know what happened 4000 years ago? We need water now. And we can thank the great wizzes that have run the well dry for the last 100 years. So unless those scientists can figure out a way to create water, we may just have to change the way we live.

[SouthPlatteDemon]

Are you adding stuff to the graph or is my computer not showing the whole graph? The new graph you posted looks like it was photshopped by a middle school student.

Water? You want water, I'll let you have the water I pump out of my basement all summer.

More storage is the solution to drought cycles, but just like the fires in California their are those that have stopped man made solutions that will work on behalf of animals. For example, they can't cut down the forest (log) to minimize fire conditions and can't build reservoirs because of the river valley being ruined.

Don't believe the scare tactics of the policiticians and the media this close to an election. It is simply to done to make you vote a certain way. I can see it is working.

I'm not fiddling while rome is burning or have my head in the sand. I'm simply aware of my immediate surroundings and the tactics of the political machine.

[Axewielder]

The second graph has a different y-axis so it looks skewed (hehe no I didn't add to it).

I don't think there are short-term solutions to the water, fire, or gw problems. Long term, I believe our water problems will be solved first (reservoirs, water treatment plants, ocean desalinization plants, etc). Sadly, those solutions consume massive amounts of energy, and will only contribute to gw (as does just about everything else that is based on technology). Prayer is sounding better and better...


EDIT: Today's C02 levels are approximated to be 385 ppmv, so yes that "hockey stick" at the end of the second graph is the real deal.

[marcus]

My point is not that we can figure out what a longterm trend was. C02 or weather patterns. Yeah, we can take core samples and see what happened. My point is that we are 300 Million+ living here. We have populated the East and West Coasts. We are populating the Southwest. We are running out of water. That is a fact. So, what real good does it do for scientists to know what happened 4000 years ago? We need water now. And we can thank the great wizzes that have run the well dry for the last 100 years. So unless those scientists can figure out a way to create water, we may just have to change the way we live.

Well said, Fett. I haven't actually heard any good ideas what to do about the water situation. Most of the potential solutions I have heard are quite expensive and involve screwing other communities downstream. We may be seeing some of these plans put into action soon, so I hope they work out.

[marcus]

More storage is the solution to drought cycles, but just like the fires in California their are those that have stopped man made solutions that will work on behalf of animals. For example, they can't cut down the forest (log) to minimize fire conditions and can't build reservoirs because of the river valley being ruined.

You are correct that the solution to drought cycles is more storage and other infrastructural improvements, but I don't think you understand the political climate of the southeast. Infrastructure is neglected here, habitually, not because of environmentalists but because of a knee-jerk anti-tax and government attitude. Infrastructure doesn't follow population growth here because there is no political will to do so. Even with a mere few months of water left in the reservoirs, the local news media is having no problem finding self-interested asshats willing to complain about their lawns.

As for fire conditions, well, it is a lot more complicated than you are making it out to be. Logging does little, really, to solve this problem. Underbrush is much more of a problem, and you would have to pay logging companies to remove this as it doesn't make good lumber. Not to mention that a lot of what is burning is not old growth forest anyway. You are being fed a line of BS by politicians who want to sell logging rights to their political donors.

Don't believe the scare tactics of the policiticians and the media this close to an election. It is simply to done to make you vote a certain way. I can see it is working.

I'm not fiddling while rome is burning or have my head in the sand. I'm simply aware of my immediate surroundings and the tactics of the political machine.

Well, these political tactics happen on both sides of the aisle. In any case, if you want somebody in the presidential election that is going to do something about global warming, who do you vote for? None of them seem to be talking about it, even the democrats.

[SouthPlatteDemon]

You are correct that the solution to drought cycles is more storage and other infrastructural improvements, but I don't think you understand the political climate of the southeast. Infrastructure is neglected here, habitually, not because of environmentalists but because of a knee-jerk anti-tax and government attitude. Infrastructure doesn't follow population growth here because there is no political will to do so. Even with a mere few months of water left in the reservoirs, the local news media is having no problem finding self-interested asshats willing to complain about their lawns.

As for fire conditions, well, it is a lot more complicated than you are making it out to be. Logging does little, really, to solve this problem. Underbrush is much more of a problem, and you would have to pay logging companies to remove this as it doesn't make good lumber. Not to mention that a lot of what is burning is not old growth forest anyway. You are being fed a line of BS by politicians who want to sell logging rights to their political donors.



Well, these political tactics happen on both sides of the aisle. In any case, if you want somebody in the presidential election that is going to do something about global warming, who do you vote for? None of them seem to be talking about it, even the democrats.

Understood. In Colorado our biggest threat is the Californication of the state. We are chopping down the beetle infested trees faster than the transplants can chain themselves to em. The requirement to clear underbrush and replant saplings is required of the logging companies.

Maybe Bono can have a concert to help with the infastructure problem in the southeast?

[Axewielder]

None of them seem to be talking about it, even the democrats.

I've noticed that. That's the scary thing about GW....free capitalism doesn't contain any forces to counteract it. Democracy won't solve it because politicians only care about the next four years, and the people always vote for what "feels good now". Technology won't solve it because that is what caused the whole mess in the first place. Honestly I don't believe we have a prayer of beating this one. I think the future 50 years from now is going to look like a poorly written Mad Mad sequel (and we thought the nukes were going to get us...ha!)

[marcus]

Understood. In Colorado our biggest threat is the Californication of the state. We are chopping down the beetle infested trees faster than the transplants can chain themselves to em. The requirement to clear underbrush and replant saplings is required of the logging companies.

We are fighting that here too, lol. Strip malls, tract housing, and chain stores are going up everywhere. I actually went to college here in the early 90s, moved to Cali for 9 years, and then moved back. I thought I was moving back to NC, but it is a lot like California! In some ways that's not a bad thing, I can now get decent sushi here, for example, but all these stripmalls and traffic are driving me crazy.

Maybe Bono can have a concert to help with the infastructure problem in the southeast?

I don't think he gives a shit about us

[marcus]

I've noticed that. That's the scary thing about GW....free capitalism doesn't contain any forces to counteract it. Democracy won't solve it because politicians only care about the next four years, and the people always vote for what "feels good now". Technology won't solve it because that is what caused the whole mess in the first place. Honestly I don't believe we have a prayer of beating this one. I think the future 50 years from now is going to look like a poorly written Mad Mad sequel (and we thought the nukes were going to get us...ha!)

Did you notice how Gore didn't even say anything about GW in the 2000 race? He has actually been talking about it for years, but didn't say a word in 2000. Now, he's all over it again. I'm thinking the only solution is Bush's moon base and colonization of Mars. We all thought he was crazy when he said that ("Mars, Bitches!") but maybe he was on to something: we can all move to Mars after screwing up the Earth

[Bengal]

Did you notice how Gore didn't even say anything about GW in the 2000 race? He has actually been talking about it for years, but didn't say a word in 2000. Now, he's all over it again. I'm thinking the only solution is Bush's moon base and colonization of Mars. We all thought he was crazy when he said that ("Mars, Bitches!") but maybe he was on to something: we can all move to Mars after screwing up the Earth

Yep, that Mars speech was another distraction. He had no intention of going to Mars but it sounded pretty good, right? I thought it did. Course I think our space program is a sham anyway. But that's another story...

[Big D]

Prayer is sounding better and better...

No offense, but you can pray until you're blue in the face and it ain't gonna do us a bit of good. Go to your local hospital, find the children's ward, find the grieving parents that have been praying for weeks/months/years for their kids to recover. Didn't work for them either.

It's real simple, prayer doesn't work because nobody is listening.

And even if "god" was listening to you pray, I seriously doubt he'd want to help a bunch of us stupid humans that have fucked up the planet he gave them.

[fett]

Tread softly. Dig D.