Actor Heath Ledger found dead

[SeventhSon]

Well, suicide is also the sixth leading cause of death for 5 to 14 years old. Yes, children as young as 5 commit suicide.

my opinion is that a 5 year old that is severely depressed enough to commit suicide is at the point where they are unable to think clearly or intelligently. but if it makes you feel better to think that such a child is 100% accountable for committing the "ultimate selfish act", that's your prerogative. If you read what the parents have to say about their child (yes, you can google child suicide) you will never find the word "selfish" to describe their child. Instead, you'll find them describe symptoms of depression (or signs of depression that were misinterpreted).

I reserve the word "selfish" for acts that *reward* oneself at the expense of others. I guess you can look at an escape from a depression that you feel will never end as a *reward*, but that's a stretch.

And with regards to whether you think the spy analogy was apropos, many people who commit suicide feel like they are doing their loved ones a favor. Gee, there was a famous Christmas movie along these lines, wasn't there?...on the tip of my tongue...

Hell, I'm not going to get bent over this. If you want to call it selfish you're entitled to your opinions. I just don't agree with them. IMO, childhood/teen depression is a mental illness that needs to be treated, not frowned upon as the "ultimate selfish act" when it spirals out of control to its worst case scenario.

[VitaminG]

And I'm sure many people who suicide feel they are teaching their families a lesson too. The old "they'll be sorry when I'm gone" scenario.

The first document I managed to uncover on child suicide referred repeatedly to the small number of childhood suicides. It even states that suicide is very rare amongst Americans under age 14. I don't know how it ranks amongst the tally of causes for childhood death, and I'm by no means trying to diminish the seriousness of the issue, but most suicides are not by 5 year old children.

Obviously anyone that young killing themselves aren't thinking of the ramifications of their actions. A sense of consequence is something that is developed with experience & growth, and most young children have a limited understanding of the concept. That's why as parents we're constantly asking our kids to think how the other person feels, how would you feel if they were in their position, etc. It's not a thought process that naturally occurs to them.

But we're not talking about childhood depression. Or spies making the ultimate sacrifice to protect secrets of their government. We're discussing the possible suicide of a grown man. Suicide is often seen as a solution to depression, but it's not the only one.

Most suicides are teenagers and adults, individuals who do have a sense of consequence, who despite their despair will understand that their actions impact those around them. I'm not "frowing upon" anyone who gets to the point they want to take their own life. Depression IS a mental illness and sufferers do need treatment & support. At least on that we agree. Don't feel that you need to school me on the despair and anguish of clinical depression - I've been down there.

Regardless of your own definition of selfishness, it is to be concerned chiefly or only with oneself; to be concerned primarily with your own interests, regardless of others. Worrying about "rewards" can be a selfish behaviour, but it's not the primary motivator or the only definition.

As I've stated earlier, to take your own life without considering the affect it will have on those close to you is a selfish act. You don't think that parents, partners & children of people that have committed suicide feel that something precious has been stolen away from them? That it is a selfish act doesn't mean that the person is inherently selfish. Doing one bad (or good) act doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad (or good) person.

And before you feel the need to pull a few more obscure scenarios out, how about I try a couple out for you?

What if:
You were the last human on the planet, there was no hope for survival, no one to provide you companionship now that the zombies have killed your dog, and no chance to repopulate the planet. Would it be "selfish" to kill yourself then? or,
You were stranded on a ship loaded with nuclear explosives, hurtling towards the sun in an attempt to revive it and thereby save all life on Earth, but knowing that you could never return home and possibly face a painful & firey death. Would it be "selfish" to kill yourself then?

[Bengal]

When did 5 year olds come in the conversation? I'm not sure a 5 year old can really understand the concequences of suicide. So I would be more inclined to call a 5 year old that "commits suicide" more of an accident. Because I don't think a 5 year old can grasp the finality of suicide...

Being free from crippling depression is absolutly a reward for someone in it. Not a stretch at all. Just ask someone that suffers from it. Not just the "take 1 Paxil and you'll be fine" depressed person but someone that has been hospitialized for it. As them if it would be a reward to be free from the depression. I think you know what you'd find...

Childhood/teen depression has nothing to do with this thread so I don't know why it was injected into it. At this point, suicide doesn't either. So... Whatever...

[SeventhSon]

both of you (bengal and vitamin g) made the blanket statement

suicide = the ultimate selfish act

with no qualification. so i simply added child suicide to your equation to see if it still held up. if it doesn't hold up with children (and bengal seems to agree with that) then the equation is wrong.

in the end all i'm saying is that no one can really know what's going on inside the mind of someone who commits suicide...whether they were mentally ill, whether they were selfish, whether it was the only way to save their family from some crazy conspiracy, who the fuck knows...so it's a little presumptuous to jump on the judgement game IMO. that is all.

[Bengal]

Point out where I said suicide is selfish? I don't think I said that until you had brought it up...

I wasn't agreeing with you and my post didn't prove your point at all. I'm saying that any 5 year old who commits suicide, something which I have never heard of, it's not really suicide if he/she doesn't understand the finality of it. It in no way proves that its either selfish or unselfish...

I don't think the thought of being selfish crosses the mind of someone suicidal. Maybe that's where we are not communicating. The act itself is a selfish act. But I don't think the person that is driven to suicide is really thinking about that. I'd say they are not. So I'm not saying that the person is knowingly selfish. But the act itself is...

[El_Kabong]

Meh; more oxygen for me.

[slash-ed]

I think we are all missing the point here. Joe Steeler's post here is, in my opinion, the only post worth a damn in the past 10 or whatever it is debating suicide. No one has the right to say that they would have done things differently if they had been in his shoes. Or anyone else's.

If you guys want to condemn him, wait for the autopsy before you decide to pass judgement. I think suicide is an immensely stupid thing to do, but for the moment we should all just mourn the fact that the world has lost another young talent. RIP.

Man!!..... it has been quite a day. Economics with the stock market, politics everywhere and this.
I think it refelects on how people jump on each other's shit with such aggresiveness.

Wether he died of a voluntary or accidental overdose, we shouldn't call him anything. It is a great loss as he was somebody's son, brother, cousin or friend.

If it was an accident, what a tragedy.

If it was suicide, we should keep our words to ourselves because none of us really knew the kind of "personal" hell he was living. That was his choice and I am sure it felt right and correct to him at the time and that is ALL we are entitled to.

Calling him a loser or any derogatory word is just plain ignorance.
You will never know, for sure, that you are in hell until you look at the devil face to face and you make a move. Your move and people shall respect your right to do so.

[SeventhSon]

Point out where I said suicide is selfish? I don't think I said that until you had brought it up...

"SS, I hate to disagree with you but any teenager that commits suicide is selfish"

I wasn't agreeing with you and my post didn't prove your point at all. I'm saying that any 5 year old who commits suicide, something which I have never heard of...

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

"among children aged 5-14 years, homicide was the third leading cause of death, and suicide was the sixth."

, it's not really suicide if he/she doesn't understand the finality of it.

well the CDC considers it suicide, because the word has a specific meaning: KILLING ONESELF.

It in no way proves that its either selfish or unselfish...

exactly my point. no one knows what's going through the person's head so why judge?

I don't think the thought of being selfish crosses the mind of someone suicidal. Maybe that's where we are not communicating. The act itself is a selfish act. But I don't think the person that is driven to suicide is really thinking about that. I'd say they are not. So I'm not saying that the person is knowingly selfish. But the act itself is...

ok, i agree that "selfish" is a loaded term. one can argue that acts of love and altruism to taking care of your kids are actually "selfish".

My problem in this thread was that "selfish" was clearly being used as a pejorative (ala spoiled, angst-ridden teenagers or Enron executives) in a attempt to paint people who commit (or attempt) suicide in a very negative manner...as if that person should be punished (if they were still alive) for the negative repercussions of their act.

Oh, and Vitamin G, this topic strikes very close to home with me as well...

[Boxcar Willie 84]

nice....a talented guy dies and it sparks yet another pissing match on the jackson message board....rip heath ledger, why cant i quit you!!!

[SeventhSon]

yep, here's an *unqualified* RIP to heath ledger.

[necrotechno]

The article I read on it said he was having some kind of severe stress disorder that kept him from sleeping. Two Ambien would only put him out for like an hour. So it could have very well been an accidental overdose. We don't know yet.

Now, Brad Delp on the other hand...

[VitaminG]

My problem in this thread was that "selfish" was clearly being used as a pejorative (ala spoiled, angst-ridden teenagers or Enron executives) in a attempt to paint people who commit (or attempt) suicide in a very negative manner...as if that person should be punished (if they were still alive) for the negative repercussions of their act.

well that wasn't my intention & reads a hell of a lot into a short phrase. My original point was only that at the time I was considering it, I thought it selfish of me to do that to my family.

I think Bengal most succinctly articulated what I clearly was unable to in his last post.

But whatever, as others have said, this isn't the forum for this discussion and we've gotten way off track.

Oh, and Vitamin G, this topic strikes very close to home with me as well...

I'm genuinely very sorry to hear that.


slash-ed, no judgment or condemnation here from me. Whether it was an accidental overdose or suicide, it is still a sad loss, particularly for his family.

My wife wondered this morning, with the press getting the story out within half an hour of his discovery, whether the police had been able to notify the family before they found out over the breakfast news over here.

[Firebird V]

I never saw any of the films he acted in. He must have ben very good. RIP.

[zeegler]

Jeez, we've now brought religion and child suicide into this thread, neither of which has anything to do with the topic. I wasn't railing on suicide so much as I was on those who accidentally overdose due to recreational use. Yes, I think suicide is stupid, but of course I realize people with severe mental illness either don't fully comprehend their actions, or can't see any other option. Perhaps in this case, that might be a factor. Perhaps not. All too aften with celebrities it's just a case of escapism gotten out of hand, which I maintain is irresponsible and selfish.

As for Heath Ledger, I heard on the news that the police don't think it's suicide at all. Perhaps we will find out in the coming days.

[Lev]

Seemed like a good person and I was really looking forward to his Joker performance (still am). Sad to see him go at such a young age, RIP.