PA Help Needed

[Rupe]

Thanks everyone. The clubs we play all have their own rigs so this is for rehearsal space only...the ability to make it "grow" is not a concern. If we ever play somewhere where we need a PA, we'll hire a sound company for the gig.

[nor]

Not sure how much volume you need - start by buying/building a baffle for the drum kit. That will save you $$$ in PA gear...

Check out the Mackie powered stuff. I use the 450's, 1521's, and 1530's several times a week - every week (we have dozens of them). In three years of almost continuous use and transport I've had exactly one 450 go down. Very average tone with a flat curve - perfect for rehearsal spaces.

350 - "These aren't the speakers you're looking for." Move along..

450 - small, easy to move, louder than they look like they should be.
Wedge shaped for floor monitor usage or stand mount. Throws 20'-30' effectively.

1521 - love these. Essentially an EAW design with Mackie power section. Way more kick than the 450 with a 60' effective throw. Heavy as hell (takes two to lift onto a stand), but if its just for that room you'll only have to worry about it once). If you ever find yourself at the Hyatt downtown, check out the 2nd floor ballroom. 110'x65' - 6 1521's, 2 450's, and a couple of powered subs FILLED that room with sound.

1530 - 3 way, best fidelity of the three - not a lot of kick though (IMO). Great for a small space if ya wanna spend the extra dough. Big puppies - not exactly stand-friendly. They work best sitting on some subs.

All these units have feedback rejection circuitry - works great. I can hold a gained-up condenser 3' from the grille with nary a squeal.

------
Start with a pair of 450's and stands. If that does the trick (and it might if you baffle the kit) than you're set. If not, move the 450's to the floor and pick up some 1521's and put 'em on the sticks you bought for the 450's. If the 1521's aren't loud enough - you have some stage volume issues, lol!
------
MIXERS
Don't go crazy looking for features. Here are the features you NEED...
1. Four XLR (mic style) inputs, 2 AUX busses (monitors), stereo line input/output (record/playback)
2. XLR mains. The speakers listed above are all XLR in - having XLR outs on the console makes it easy. No freaking adapters...
2. Built-in effects processor.
3. Internal power supply with UPC power cord. UPC's are easy to find if you need one (computers, monitors, pro gear, appliances, etc.) . Steal one from you kids video game and deny everything.

DO NOT BUY ANYTHING WITH AN EXTERNAL SUPPLY! These are notoriously cheap and fragile and generally use proprietary connectors, i.e gotta order a replacement from China. These will piss you off...
------
MICS
Rsmacker hit the nail on the head - don't skimp on the mics! Head down to your local shop and find one that makes you sound like a rock star. If ya wanna get techy about it, sing into something with a frequency analyzer and buy a mic with a freq curve that will balance things out a bit.
------
MISC
Cables are another thing you should not go cheap on. You don't need $500 oxy-free runs, but the GC bargain bin stuff ain't gonna cut it either. Hosa or Whirlwind have lots of mid-priced stuff.


Whew! Mackie should pay me...

[Rsmacker]

All these units have feedback rejection circuitry - works great. I can hold a gained-up condenser 3' from the grille with nary a squeal.

Stupid boy! DOINKKK!!!

FBX technology is useful sometimes, but remember that when you do tricks like that above, the gizmo will suck the living shit out of your sound (very technical description there), and hold it there. In other words, it might notch out the frequencies feeding back, but there will be more and more of those being pulled until there the frequency dynamics are gone.
Your spectrum analyser will show a curve that looks like my sales figures (dead, flat all along at rock bottom!!).

[Shawn Lutz]

at least your old singer actually had a PA How come vocalists think they can just join a band in bring in there own mic

[nor]

Stupid boy! DOINKKK!!!

FBX technology is useful sometimes, but remember that when you do tricks like that above, the gizmo will suck the living shit out of your sound (very technical description there), and hold it there. In other words, it might notch out the frequencies feeding back, but there will be more and more of those being pulled until there the frequency dynamics are gone.
Your spectrum analyser will show a curve that looks like my sales figures (dead, flat all along at rock bottom!!).

umm... we are talking about a cheap practice system for a 16x28 room, not a best-of-breed gig rig. I can chat all day about Midas consoles and NeXo arrays (we have those as well) but that would have little to nothing to do with the questions asked or the solutions needed for this specific application. I am well aware of the 6-12db notches and their subsequent effect on the freq curve. I am also aware that for a vocal-only, small-room, low cost solution - any additional fidelity gained will be killed by the amps/cymbals in that little room. In other words..

It. Doesn't. Freaking. Matter. Dude.


Save the name calling. I do this for a living, get paid fairly well to do it.
Peace.

[lerxstcat]

I would get a pair of the 15" 2-way Peavey Neos, which are only $199 each through AMS. They are pretty great bang for the buck and they only weigh like 30 lbs each too!

A pair of stands would be optimum to get them up to ear level. Then a 6 or 8 channel Peavey or Yamaha powered mixer in the 300 watts per side range would probably do for rehearsal, provided you're not a real loud metal band. If you are then you're gonna need more than that.

I know that most everybody else who's posted knows more about these things than I do, but I read the "budget" in the OP's statement and so without hearing his real budget I'm guessing he's looking for "cheap as possible". My friends and I are rehearsing with a pair of the Neos, a 16-channel Peavey board and one CS800 amp. Of course the drummer has the Roland TD-20 kit so volume is not a problem drumswise. We're all running direct with processors so the PA doesn't have to compete with standard guitar and bass amps being cranked either. So that's atypical too, but this little rig gets pretty loud and stays pretty clean, and hearing the vocals is no problem.

[Rsmacker]

umm... we are talking about a cheap practice system for a 16x28 room, not a best-of-breed gig rig. I can chat all day about Midas consoles and NeXo arrays (we have those as well) but that would have little to nothing to do with the questions asked or the solutions needed for this specific application. I am well aware of the 6-12db notches and their subsequent effect on the freq curve. I am also aware that for a vocal-only, small-room, low cost solution - any additional fidelity gained will be killed by the amps/cymbals in that little room. In other words..

It. Doesn't. Freaking. Matter. Dude.


Save the name calling. I do this for a living, get paid fairly well to do it.
Peace.

Good for you, me too, it keeps me in Charlie, large thirsty cars and my nice country house. And one in France soon, ha! What a way to earn our keep eh?!

Right, for starters, my previous post, rather than being name-calling or specifically aimed at you, was a light-hearted one in response to your comment about holding a condenser mic in front of a speaker.
Anyone of lesser experience reading this and hoping to pick up some hints and tips would probably not be advised to do this kind of thing, it's the kind of experience that stays with you, certainly as long as your ears are ringing.

In your post, you brought up the subject of "feedback rejection circuitry", which, though I'm unfamiliar with the Mackie range, take to mean technology akin to the Sabine Feedback Exterminator or Behringer Feedback Destroyer.
Far from being "best-of-breed" kit, this sort of thing is shit-cheap, and is appearing now in all sorts of budget systems.
Alas, rather than employing sensible speaker placement and basic EQ'ing, many people now just think "It's all done automatically", let the technology do its thing, and that's it, job done. There's therefore lots of musos out there who sound shit but don't know why.


You and I know that this sort of thing is so rudimentary as to be not worthy of comment, but not everyone is so lucky or learned.

Possibly you are right "it doesn't matter", but then why answer the guy when he asks for advice? Fuck him, tell him to go and buy a pair of secondhand 1x12s and a 300watt mixer amp. Is that cool?
I'm not often serious on here, but when I am, I would like to think that my input is of use to someone somewhere down the line. The more info someone has, the more likely they are to make a satisfactory decision when it comes to parting with their cash.

Fear not though, normal service will be resumed shortly and I'll be back to knob gags and discussions about buggery.




Incidentally, feel free to talk to me about your Nexo and Midas, techie porn is always welcome here, just let me loosen my trousers and get comfortable. In return I'll dribble on about my EV line-array and whichever digital board I go for (oooh, such a dilemma, which one, WHICH ONE???)

[nor]

Sorry, bro - been one of those 'character-building' weeks. You are correct about the knowledge thing.