534 women and children

[CharvelRocker]

.2%?
huh?
of what?
where are you coming up with that number? millions of members? we're talking PRIESTS here, not parishoners. either you're intentionally mixing apples with oranges to confuse the issue, or you really have no grasp at all of the subject.

sadly, you are in such complete denial about this subject that you cannot carry on a logical conversation about it (and I'm sure it is this way with many catholics, not wanting to believe the truth about their church that betrayed them so horribly) . everyone else here gets my point about the direct complicity of the catholic church leadership in the raping of kids, and the extensive and organized coverup of those crimes, except for you. (so you might reconsider who looks like the idiot here).

good luck with your life, and I hope you don't have kids in the altar boy program.

Read wikipedia? I also NEVER denied it and in fact commented that it could of been handled better than it has. And I am an altar server and have been for about 3 years. Never been raped. Oh and BY THE WAY, 90% our donation money stays IN the church to keep the damn lights and AC/Heat on. The rest goes to the diocese which AFAIK, is not paying out any claims. A million members might of been a slight stretch, but the number is still small. You did ignore me saying .2% is still too much btw.

You seem to be just looking to start a fight while the rest are debating things in a fairly contained matter. You seem to be the one lacking grasp of the subject as well. Maybe if you read the rest of the topic you would. Have a nice day.

Bengal, I can understand that. I'm sure it's something the dude is not proud of. It does speak a lot of their faith in people though to not have people use it against him. Faith that probably is a bit misplaced.

I for one am not a huge fan of him; he tenure has essentially consisted of him sitting on a chair and talking about what he doesn't like. I agree with him "condemning excessive consumerism" in the sense it's horrible how it runs people lives, and him trying to reach out to other religions. The rest to me is... meh. Hasn't done much at all. Rushed decision under pressure to find someone to fill in John Paul II, and I don't think it was a good one.

[lerxstcat]

Well, didn't all Nazi Youth swear alliegence to Hitler? I'm sure they did. It's not a smear campaign, it's the truth. I'm sorry that all youth had to participate. I'm sure not all did, some left the country when that mainac took power. But it's not a smear campaign.

There were a lot of Nazi War Criminals that used the same defense, they didn't want to get shot. "Sorry, I really didn't mean to kill those 10,000 Jews, I was afraid I'd get shot if I didn't". I'm not saying he's a war criminal but that excuse is weak. Show me where the punishment was death for the entire family if the kid didn't join the Nazi Youth.

Part of Hitler Youth was training the kids to turn in their parents if they said anything against the Reich. If they did, the parents were taken away to concentration camps, same as Jews, Gypsies and others. In that environment it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you refused to join the Hitler Youth, it was because your family disagreed with government policy. Thus the whole family went off to the death camps.

No one has ever said that Pope Benedict caused any harm to anyone while in the Hitler Youth - and if there was any such info it would have come out, I'm sure. So your reference to someone killing 10,000 Jews is pretty inflammatory. Show me where anyone, besides you, has inferred that the Pope killed 10,000 Jews while he was in the Hitler Youth.

[toejam]

Here's an interesting movie I saw a few months ago about the molestation of girls and boys. Shows you how much of a piece of shit the catholic church really is.

http://www.deliverusfromevilthemovie.com/index_flash.php

[lerxstcat]

oh, and CR, you DO know, don't you, that your Sunday offerings are directly going to pay off the victims of your church's sex abuse, right?

how can you give them a dime, knowing what they are doing with it?

What, you'd rather the church stiff those abuse victims by saying "Sorry, parishioners aren't donating anymore because of your case, so we can't pay the settlement after all"?

That is actually helping own up to the church's mistakes in this matter by helping to pay for the claims, along with all the good that the church also does around the world.

[Bengal]

Part of Hitler Youth was training the kids to turn in their parents if they said anything against the Reich. If they did, the parents were taken away to concentration camps, same as Jews, Gypsies and others. In that environment it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you refused to join the Hitler Youth, it was because your family disagreed with government policy. Thus the whole family went off to the death camps.

No one has ever said that Pope Benedict caused any harm to anyone while in the Hitler Youth - and if there was any such info it would have come out, I'm sure. So your reference to someone killing 10,000 Jews is pretty inflammatory. Show me where anyone, besides you, has inferred that the Pope killed 10,000 Jews while he was in the Hitler Youth.

It was in my post you quoted, I said he wasn't a war criminal. But he was a Nazi. And I'm sure his parents were too.

Having said that, I'm sure there are a lot of Germans that supported the party back then. Should they be condemned? That's not for me to say.

But why pick him with such a big target on his back. We haven't even talked about the Churchs stance in Germany during WWII. But why pick him? Consistancy? Seems to me the Chuch needs some new blood with some new direction. This is just more of the same.

So consistancy doesn't work with me. What I think is the deal is the Church doesn't care what anyone else thinks of them. Hell, they don't even care what their own people think. So they do what they want, fuck everyone else. Which is fine by me, I'm not paying them.

[lerxstcat]

It was in my post you quoted, I said he wasn't a war criminal. But he was a Nazi. And I'm sure his parents were too.

Having said that, I'm sure there are a lot of Germans that supported the party back then. Should they be condemned? That's not for me to say.

But why pick him with such a big target on his back. We haven't even talked about the Churchs stance in Germany during WWII. But why pick him? Consistancy? Seems to me the Chuch needs some new blood with some new direction. This is just more of the same.

So consistancy doesn't work with me. What I think is the deal is the Church doesn't care what anyone else thinks of them. Hell, they don't even care what their own people think. So they do what they want, fuck everyone else. Which is fine by me, I'm not paying them.

I didn't follow it that closely, but my understanding is that Pope Benedict was chosen because he would continue John Paul II's policies. And yes, the church has been around for almost 2,000 years, and change is very slow.

You're right that the church is not going to make decisions based on what outside forces or even its parishioners think. It's no democracy, religion doesn't work that way. You don't tell God what you want, He tells you the way it's going to be. And the church as the earthly representative of God tells the faithful what's what, not the other way around.

Thing is, if you believe that God is at the end of that trail, you believe that you can't dictate to Him.

So regardless of the fact that the church was wrong in how it handled the abuse issue, it's not choosing its Popes based on what anyone else thinks. To expect otherwise is really rather stupid.

[Bengal]

I didn't follow it that closely, but my understanding is that Pope Benedict was chosen because he would continue John Paul II's policies. And yes, the church has been around for almost 2,000 years, and change is very slow.

You're right that the church is not going to make decisions based on what outside forces or even its parishioners think. It's no democracy, religion doesn't work that way. You don't tell God what you want, He tells you the way it's going to be. And the church as the earthly representative of God tells the faithful what's what, not the other way around.

Thing is, if you believe that God is at the end of that trail, you believe that you can't dictate to Him.

So regardless of the fact that the church was wrong in how it handled the abuse issue, it's not choosing its Popes based on what anyone else thinks. To expect otherwise is really rather stupid.

Which proves my point. The church doesn't care that it put up as Pope a former Nazi. And it doesn't care that it "covered up" the molestation issue. And it doesn't care that the hard working people that attend the church has to pay the lawsuits for priests that they KNEW were molesting kids but moved them instead of defrocking them. They don't care about anything but the upper echelon.

I do find it funny that the priesthood in the Church trys to tell people what's good and whats not while the people do whatever they want regardless. "Pick And Choose Catholics" I call them. Sure, the church is against birth control and sex is only for procreation but fuck it. I like to fuck and don't want to get anyone pregnant so I'm out having sex for fun and using rubbers. But I'll be back on Sunday with my $50 check and all will be forgiven.

That, I don't get.

[lerxstcat]

Which proves my point. The church doesn't care that it put up as Pope a former Nazi. And it doesn't care that it "covered up" the molestation issue. And it doesn't care that the hard working people that attend the church has to pay the lawsuits for priests that they KNEW were molesting kids but moved them instead of defrocking them. They don't care about anything but the upper echelon.

I do find it funny that the priesthood in the Church trys to tell people what's good and whats not while the people do whatever they want regardless. "Pick And Choose Catholics" I call them. Sure, the church is against birth control and sex is only for procreation but fuck it. I like to fuck and don't want to get anyone pregnant so I'm out having sex for fun and using rubbers. But I'll be back on Sunday with my $50 check and all will be forgiven.

That, I don't get.

Catholicism and Christianity in general is based on forgiveness of sin if the sinner repents. I discussed that in a previous post.

As for "pick and choose", humans are imperfect. Even Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing. That's his way of saying use your own mind and conscience, because even the church will be imperfect, being run by fallible humans.

I go to church to worship God, in fellowship with others. The fact that the catholic church isn't perfect doesn't mean it's worthless. It's no more or less imperfect than any denomination of Christianity. I'm not perfect either, so I'm not going to go off and found a more perfect church.

But the church has also done a lot of good around the world, and continues to do that every day. I'm not going to repudiate it because it's done some things wrong as well. No institution wrought by humans can stand that scrutiny including our own government.

[skorb]

Read wikipedia? I also NEVER denied it and in fact commented that it could of been handled better than it has. And I am an altar server and have been for about 3 years. Never been raped. Oh and BY THE WAY, 90% our donation money stays IN the church to keep the damn lights and AC/Heat on. The rest goes to the diocese which AFAIK, is not paying out any claims. A million members might of been a slight stretch, but the number is still small. You did ignore me saying .2% is still too much btw.

You seem to be just looking to start a fight while the rest are debating things in a fairly contained matter. You seem to be the one lacking grasp of the subject as well. Maybe if you read the rest of the topic you would. Have a nice day.

right, I'm "starting a fight" in pointing out your being in denial about your church. if that makes you feel better to say that, whatever. apparently that is the kind of hold that religion has over some people. I think it's sad, frankly.

it is exactly this denial mentality you exhibit that gives your church leaders cover to do all those heinous rapes and molestations over 50 yrs and then lie and evade and stonewall to try to get out of responsibility for it.

if catholics had any brains or guts, they would demand the resignation and jailing of every single catholic church priest and leader (see Cardinal Roger Mahoney of LA) that perpetrated this nightmare, but here you are minimizing it, again giving those scumbags more cover. they have you right where they want you.

all I can do is

[Bengal]

Catholicism and Christianity in general is based on forgiveness of sin if the sinner repents. I discussed that in a previous post.

As for "pick and choose", humans are imperfect. Even Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing. That's his way of saying use your own mind and conscience, because even the church will be imperfect, being run by fallible humans.

I go to church to worship God, in fellowship with others. The fact that the catholic church isn't perfect doesn't mean it's worthless. It's no more or less imperfect than any denomination of Christianity. I'm not perfect either, so I'm not going to go off and found a more perfect church.

But the church has also done a lot of good around the world, and continues to do that every day. I'm not going to repudiate it because it's done some things wrong as well. No institution wrought by humans can stand that scrutiny including our own government.

No doubt about it. And in my first post I said that a lot of people get something good out of religion. People in my family are very religious, not Catholic but very close. Hell, I've been Baptised and Confirmed and all that good shite. I was a chuch goer in my youth, well I really didn't have a choice but I was there.

What I learned is that I don't need to go to a fancy building to commune with God. I don't need to have someone "teach" me about the word of God. I don't need to give my money to an orginization that is fraught with wrongturns and misdoings. I don't need any of that to commune with God. And in the end, I don't think God needs it either.

But man does. Lots have gotten riches and fame and infamy off of God. And a lot of them fall. Sure man is falable. But the greater irony is when he holds himself up to be "godly" and a becon for people in the congregation only to find that in private, he's a bigger sicko than anyone in the parish. When that happens, they need to be called out and made the specticle they really are. If the Church would have done that from the begining, this whole molestation issue wouldn't be as big as it is. But they didn't, they covered it up, that they are reaping the "benefits" of that decision.

[CharvelRocker]

right, I'm "starting a fight" in pointing out your being in denial about your church. if that makes you feel better to say that, whatever. apparently that is the kind of hold that religion has over some people. I think it's sad, frankly.

it is exactly this denial mentality you exhibit that gives your church leaders cover to do all those heinous rapes and molestations over 50 yrs and then lie and evade and stonewall to try to get out of responsibility for it.

if catholics had any brains or guts, they would demand the resignation and jailing of every single catholic church priest and leader (see Cardinal Roger Mahoney of LA) that perpetrated this nightmare, but here you are minimizing it, again giving those scumbags more cover. they have you right where they want you.

all I can do is

Where did I ever say they should not got to jail and not be held responsible. Also, I think it's a bit sad you mention having brains. IF you had any brains (which you claim Catholics don't have), you read what I'm saying rather then just saying I'm a Catholic in denial. I laugh right back at you

[lerxstcat]

No doubt about it. And in my first post I said that a lot of people get something good out of religion. People in my family are very religious, not Catholic but very close. Hell, I've been Baptised and Confirmed and all that good shite. I was a chuch goer in my youth, well I really didn't have a choice but I was there.

What I learned is that I don't need to go to a fancy building to commune with God. I don't need to have someone "teach" me about the word of God. I don't need to give my money to an orginization that is fraught with wrongturns and misdoings. I don't need any of that to commune with God. And in the end, I don't think God needs it either.

But man does. Lots have gotten riches and fame and infamy off of God. And a lot of them fall. Sure man is falable. But the greater irony is when he holds himself up to be "godly" and a becon for people in the congregation only to find that in private, he's a bigger sicko than anyone in the parish. When that happens, they need to be called out and made the specticle they really are. If the Church would have done that from the begining, this whole molestation issue wouldn't be as big as it is. But they didn't, they covered it up, that they are reaping the "benefits" of that decision.

You're right in that God doesn't need it, but mankind does. and despite the fact that many wrong things have been done by the church, the fact that it exists still means it can feed and house orphans, care for the poor in the church, and many other things that you can't do by yourself in your home.

Again I'll point out that down here in Katrina country, religious organizations have done FAR more than our government has to help people rebuild in the aftermath of the storm. Over a million Americans, most of whom were churchgoers, have dropped what they were doing to come help their fellow humans get back on their feet.

Those are tangible things that come fom having church communities that practice what they preach. They don't excuse the things that perverts have done to kids, by a long shot. But they are making a real difference when no one else cared to.

[yard dawg]

Granting forgiveness doesnt mean covering up. Biblical standards say that repentance means to STOP doing it. The priests didnt stop so all bets are off. Repentance means to turn away from the sin.

[Bengal]

You're right in that God doesn't need it, but mankind does. and despite the fact that many wrong things have been done by the church, the fact that it exists still means it can feed and house orphans, care for the poor in the church, and many other things that you can't do by yourself in your home.

Again I'll point out that down here in Katrina country, religious organizations have done FAR more than our government has to help people rebuild in the aftermath of the storm. Over a million Americans, most of whom were churchgoers, have dropped what they were doing to come help their fellow humans get back on their feet.

Those are tangible things that come fom having church communities that practice what they preach. They don't excuse the things that perverts have done to kids, by a long shot. But they are making a real difference when no one else cared to.

I see what you're saying. That's well put and I know the Church does a lot of good too. I'm not trying to minimize that. But re-reading my posts it sounds like I am. I didn't mean to.

Everyone should be able to do what they want with their life. If you want to attend the Church of your preference, that's great. Go for it. I'm glad so many get so much good out of it. I'm just not one of them, I guess.

[lerxstcat]

Granting forgiveness doesnt mean covering up. Biblical standards say that repentance means to STOP doing it. The priests didnt stop so all bets are off. Repentance means to turn away from the sin.

That's true, but it often takes years for the abuse to be discovered - each time.

In the Catholic church the confessional is absolutely privileged info, like talking to a doctor or a lawyer is. If you confess a sin to a priest he CAN'T tell anyone about it. Plus, if the abuser expresses repentance, the church has to take that at face value.

Then it would send the priest off to another parish, to get him away from his victims. It should be noted that not all of these priests abuse again. But if they did, it might take years for it to be detected again. In that case they'd often send them off to a monastery where there were no kids. Still,
they felt they couldn't break the confessional seal.

The fact that the church is now turning them in to the police is major for an institution that has answered to no one for many centuries. It takes literally hundreds of years for the church to make institutional changes. even the Pope can't change things quickly.