Calling all Dutch members - question on SNS Reaal...

[missionguitars1]

Completely OT, but now that Fett isn't posting about meat or the stock market anymore...

I'm looking at buying shares in a Dutch banking company called SNS Reaal, my question is, has anyone out there done any business with them? Are they legit or dirtbags - any good/bad dealings with them? Just looking for opinions from current/former customers...

I know I'm reaching, but this one of the few forums I'm on with much of a European presence...thanks for any info you guys can offer!

[JacksonDean]

Aw, come on you coward, just invest and watch your money go bye bye like all the rest of us!

[missionguitars1]

What do you think I've BEEN doing over the last year! :ROTF:

Figured I need to actually start MAKING money soon - old guys like me gotta plan retirement!

[JacksonDean]

What do you think I've BEEN doing over the last year! :ROTF:

Figured I need to actually start MAKING money soon - old guys like me gotta plan retirement!

:ROTF:

[SlasZ]

I'm Belgian but I never heard of that bank...
But according to the dutch wikipedia it's been around since 1817 as one of the first savings banks in Holland.
I'd say it's quite ligit, but I never dealt with them (obviously).

[AfterForever]

Dutchy here!

I know SNS Reaal. They're definitely legit haha.

Overal: http://www.snsreaal.nl/
Banking site: http://www.snsbank.nl/particulier/home.html
Insurances: http://www.reaal.nl/

Sites are in Dutch, but they're just to illustrate that they're a big organization.
I can't much more about them, because I haven't dealt with them also.

Btw, why are you looking specifically at their shares if you don't know much about them?

[missionguitars1]

Btw, why are you looking specifically at their shares if you don't know much about them?

It's what I do for a living - look for investments around the world for U.S. investors...always trying to "dig up" value, buy low, sell high, etc...I have some screening tools at work that measure a companies financial metrics by the parameters I set ("global value", in this case) and this was one that came up...

Thanks for the insight guys - I know from their books they are legit, but figured if I got a "man - they really screwed me on a loan!"-response, I'd think twice about buying their shares...

[AfterForever]

That's interesting I should buy some too haha.

If you come across an article or something in Dutch, which seems relevant I could translate it for you if you want.

[fred dons]

SNS Reaal is not doing to well (not subprime credit bad bud not good either) the market in which they operate (retail) is not really a growth market and I don't expect their shares to jump much in the coming years, within Europe we now (as of this year) have a single european payment system and for banks to participate you really need to make billions of investments and I don't think SNS is able to do this (they probably will have another bank do this on a whitelabeling basis). Reaal is the insurance part of the company and they might have some issues on a mortgage product for which each and every insurance company in the netherlands was involved with and for which they need to provision billions as well
There are some nice bargains in the financial institutions world but I don't think SNS is one of them

[missionguitars1]

SNS Reaal is not doing to well (not subprime credit bad bud not good either) the market in which they operate (retail) is not really a growth market and I don't expect their shares to jump much in the coming years, within Europe we now (as of this year) have a single european payment system and for banks to participate you really need to make billions of investments and I don't think SNS is able to do this (they probably will have another bank do this on a whitelabeling basis). Reaal is the insurance part of the company and they might have some issues on a mortgage product for which each and every insurance company in the netherlands was involved with and for which they need to provision billions as well
There are some nice bargains in the financial institutions world but I don't think SNS is one of them

We might need to hire you as an analyst! Very well put!

We aren't expecting great things from them, as a matter of fact, I expect it to be dead money over the next year or two, but, the dividend is attractive, and they have the cash flow to support it.

As for the provisions on the mortgage product, is that the "we make our house payment to the insurance policy, and the the insurance company pays the bank"-thing so you get the tax deduction-scheme? Has that been eliminated?

[fred dons]

yeah cash flow wise they do quite well, they target a younger market and have some nice mortgage products (new style, not the ones the insurance companies are being sued for) but I'm afraid they are to small to survive on their own (might be a nice takeover candidate though)

The issue with insurance policy, which should be used for either paying your mortgage or your retirement is that the insurance companies forgot to mention that for every dollar you invested between 30 and 80 cent were lost due to "costs" and a lifeinsurance (which you did not ask for) meaning that you were not only not getting your principal back when the policy matured but in some cases people even owed the insurance company money because the little money that was invested was invested in products which defaulted during this (and the previous) crisis

the tax deduction scheme is still in place however due to the above and some stockcrises in the past years offers zero return and people won't buy it anymore, Starting this year banks (next to insurancecompanies) may offer a similar product which has much lower costs and a guaranteed minimum return and SNS is offering this product as one of the first.
A risk they might face is that due to the subprime crisis they might get into difficulties if they want to refinance their portfolio at some point, for the time being they are big enough to retain this on their own books (as most Dutch banks do for the time being) but there will come a point they will have to sell

[missionguitars1]

yeah cash flow wise they do quite well, they target a younger market and have some nice mortgage products (new style, not the ones the insurance companies are being sued for) but I'm afraid they are to small to survive on their own (might be a nice takeover candidate though)

The issue with insurance policy, which should be used for either paying your mortgage or your retirement is that the insurance companies forgot to mention that for every dollar you invested between 30 and 80 cent were lost due to "costs" and a life insurance (which you did not ask for) meaning that you were not only not getting your principal back when the policy matured but in some cases people even owed the insurance company money because the little money that was invested was invested in products which defaulted during this (and the previous) crisis

the tax deduction scheme is still in place however due to the above and some stock crises in the past years offers zero return and people won't buy it anymore, Starting this year banks (next to insurance companies) may offer a similar product which has much lower costs and a guaranteed minimum return and SNS is offering this product as one of the first.
A risk they might face is that due to the sub prime crisis they might get into difficulties if they want to refinance their portfolio at some point, for the time being they are big enough to retain this on their own books (as most Dutch banks do for the time being) but there will come a point they will have to sell

Wow, SNS makes no mention of those old insurance products being the root of any lawsuits, but the idea of insurance salesmen selling products that are high in fees that leave you with less than you put in isn't news on this side of the pond! The idea of them getting taken out by a bigger company, or maybe a US company trying to get a foothold in Europe, has been thrown around by my colleague and I.

Will proceed a little more carefully on this name, thanks a million - you've been a TREMENDOUS help!

[fred dons]

I'm afraid this is in dutch (nice to read for the dutch and belgium forumites)

http://www.overgeld.nl/rubriek/verzekeringen/3860865/_Woekerpolis__99_2__inleg_verloren...__.html?p=3,3

but this tells of a lawsuit towards SNS reaal started 2 week ago where somebody is filing suit due to the fact that 99,2 % of his savings in the policy were lost and this apparently set a new record for this particular policies