Gay Marriage revisited, Political postings discouraged

[lerxstcat]

It's a little disappointing that such a positive thread about an issue that is so controversial in today's society is now degrading into a religious-bashing discussion. If this was good-natured humor, that would be no biggee. We should all be able to laugh at ourselves. But it seems to more of the flavor of condescending mockery.

A little bit of a double standard on the part of some of those who have been critical of not being open-minded and respectful of others' beliefs, don't you think? Why is it OK to mock someone's religious beliefs -whether you subscribe to them or not - but not OK with sexual identity issues? Either you're open-minded and respectful, or not.

Thanks for articulating this in a way that I've not been able to do. There is a definite anti-Christian bias on this board, which belies the idea of tolerance espoused here.

But while I realize that this is the case within the rock and metal community, I think a reality check is in order given that the VAST majority of US citizens DO still identify as Christians. It's going to remain that way for a long time, especially with Hispanics poised to become the majority in the US in a couple of decades. Most Hispanics are Roman Catholic.

The Americans posting here are all going to live their lives out in a Christian country unless they leave the USA. Pushing the majority too hard can cause a backlash and that will be to your detriment.

[thetroy]

Ain't that the sad truth.

[Bengal]

The Americans posting here are all going to live their lives out in a Christian country unless they leave the USA. Pushing the majority too hard can cause a backlash and that will be to your detriment.

Lerx,
I think I've been pretty tollerant of other peoples faith. I may not agree with it but you can believe whatever you want.

Me? I guess I'd be more Buddhist than anything. If I had to pick, that is.

But that sentence above sounds somewhat like a veiled thread. I know you yourself can't threaten anyone but it's an interesting sentence you write there.

What do you propose would happen if christians were challenged by society?

A majorty NOW might say they are christian but I think the ones coming up are seriously questioning religion and how important or non-important it is in thier life. Just my opinion and what I've seen in my own life.

But I would be interested to see what you think Lerx.

[~K~]

It's a little disappointing that such a positive thread about an issue that is so controversial in today's society is now degrading into a religious-bashing discussion. If this was good-natured humor, that would be no biggee. We should all be able to laugh at ourselves. But it seems to more of the flavor of condescending mockery.

A little bit of a double standard on the part of some of those who have been critical of not being open-minded and respectful of others' beliefs, don't you think? Why is it OK to mock someone's religious beliefs -whether you subscribe to them or not - but not OK with sexual identity issues? Either you're open-minded and respectful, or not.

[toejam]

I've questioned religion (Catholicism) since I was a little kid. It's not my fault some people just get brainwashed and can't see another side of things. And besides, how many religions are there in the world, and which one is actually "right"?

[joelayres]

how many religions are there in the world, and which one is actually "right"?

I don't profess to know much about religion, but one glaring fact is:
There is only one God, and I ain't him.

[Bengal]

I was raised in the Church too. I knew right away that it wasn't for me. But I kept going because my parents drug me there every Sunday.

I don't care what other people believe in. If you get peace out of it, that's great man.

But I also see nothing wrong with questioning religion and their practices.

[thetroy]

I've questioned religion (Catholicism) since I was a little kid. It's not my fault some people just get brainwashed and can't see another side of things. And besides, how many religions are there in the world, and which one is actually "right"?

Pastafarianism, obviously.

[toejam]

Pastafarianism, obviously.

Mmmmm, Flying Spaghetti Monster! :ROTF:

It's still better than Scientology.

[lerxstcat]

Lerx,
I think I've been pretty tollerant of other peoples faith. I may not agree with it but you can believe whatever you want.

Me? I guess I'd be more Buddhist than anything. If I had to pick, that is.

But that sentence above sounds somewhat like a veiled thread. I know you yourself can't threaten anyone but it's an interesting sentence you write there.

What do you propose would happen if christians were challenged by society?

A majorty NOW might say they are christian but I think the ones coming up are seriously questioning religion and how important or non-important it is in thier life. Just my opinion and what I've seen in my own life.

But I would be interested to see what you think Lerx.

It's neither veiled nor a threat. It's a real possibility based on history and people's tendency to unite when they perceive themselves to be under attack.

Think of the McCarthy Era of the 50s when we had witchhunts and blacklists based on perceived Communists, many of whom weren't actually Communist at all. But people perceived a threat to their way of life.

Look at how Muslim communities harbor terrorists, not because they support the terror themselves, mostly, but because they perceive it becoming "us" vs. "them", and when the chips are down, they will side with those they identify with more.

I think it's an error to think that Christianity is waning in the nation as a whole. Probably many Christians don't talk about their faith as much because a vocal minority is exercising an anti-Christian bias and they don't want to spend half of their workdays arguing about their faith. They're at work to work, after all.

I see churches full of young people who are growing up full of faith. Those churches do preach more often today that although humans are all too fallible, that the truth of God's love is another story.

Those young people are tolerant and are more children of the God of love than the God of justice and vengeance. But if they perceive their core culture being threatened by a small minority who seem to attack Christians with a mindless hatred, they are going to defend their core values.

The threat is that the majority will feel compelled to pass more Christian-oriented laws that are more restrictive to anti-Christians.

Remember that to Christians, the concept of separation of church and state means ONLY that the US government shall not establish a state church, like the Church of England was for Great Britain. That was the narrow meaning of the term and not to eliminate Christianity from the government altogether.

One practical result of such a backlash might be a reversal of Roe V. Wade, making abortion illegal once again. The margin in the Supreme Court is probably one vote right now, with a decent chance that John McCain will appoint the next Supreme Court justice.

That seems unlikely at the moment, but things change. We are entering into a recession/depression and who knows what at this time, and when things get chaotic, people clutch at old values. In an atmosphere of confrontation it's more likely.

It doesn't matter what I think or say, I'm only one person, and pretty tolerant, I think. But I am enough of a history student to know that when things get tough, they get ugly too. We Americans, living in a bubble as we do, don't realize that enough. If you live in San Francisco or your life circle is in a limited subculture like rock musicians, your view may well be skewed.

It's also likely that my view is also skewed. But since I move and live in both subgroups of society, I see that in reality most metalheads are MORE intolerant that most Catholics that I know. And I see that the numbers are on the side of the Christians in this country.

So when things get bad and a minority pits itself against the majority, it's usually the minority that suffers. It's not that I want that; it's that humans behave this way.

[Bengal]

Lerx,
Thanks for taking the time to write that. Your viewpoint is very interesting to me.

Let me respond to a few things. Not trying to argue, just to further the converstation.

I'm not sure I've read much on here that I would really call "intollerant". Sure there are people here with no faith. Then there are people with no faith that like to debate with those that do. But as far as pure intollerance, I have not really seen any.

You bring up the Communist Witch Hunt of the 50's and muslim communities harboring terrorists as how people react when they feel threatened. I think that's a bit of a stretch. Or more of an extreme. Most people kept their mouth shut due to possible reprocussions. The McCarthey thing was really a one man war against Hollywood. He scared the population to BELIEVE that communism was a threat. Very similar to what Bush has done his last 8 years.

But relligion is use to doing that as well. Look how the catholic church behaved in Nazi Germany. A little self serving there.

Around here, the only churches that are attacting young people are those huge halls that have an audio/visual department. They play "rock" music. They have lazer light shows. The preachers pace back and forth and rant on a 60 foot screen behind the alter. All flash and bang. Those are the kinds of churches thriving around here. Not the good old fashoned Eposcipal Church. Thier numbers are declining.

Also the issue of homosexuality is driving a ton of new recruits away from the church. The young people are much more tollerant of homosexuality than older people.

I think the term "Christian" has been vilified. You can thank George W. Bush and the last 8 years for that one. He was the Christians Rocky. They loved him and he did nothing for them. Those that didn't like him really blame the christians for the 8 years crap we've had to deal with. I think the days of christians running the White House are long gone, not to return for some time.

I doubt we'll see the day that Roe vs. Wade is overturned. If it hasn't happened yet, I don't see it happening.

Who knows?

But tollerance doesn't mean you have to like it. Doesn't mean you have to accept it. Just means you have to tollerate it.

[Rupe]

It's a little disappointing that such a positive thread about an issue that is so controversial in today's society is now degrading into a religious-bashing discussion. If this was good-natured humor, that would be no biggee. We should all be able to laugh at ourselves. But it seems to more of the flavor of condescending mockery.

A little bit of a double standard on the part of some of those who have been critical of not being open-minded and respectful of others' beliefs, don't you think? Why is it OK to mock someone's religious beliefs -whether you subscribe to them or not - but not OK with sexual identity issues? Either you're open-minded and respectful, or not.

Very well articulated...you are absolutely dead-on correct.

[SEEGERMANY]

.......

[lerxstcat]

Lerx,
Thanks for taking the time to write that. Your viewpoint is very interesting to me.

Let me respond to a few things. Not trying to argue, just to further the converstation.

I'm not sure I've read much on here that I would really call "intollerant". Sure there are people here with no faith. Then there are people with no faith that like to debate with those that do. But as far as pure intollerance, I have not really seen any.

You bring up the Communist Witch Hunt of the 50's and muslim communities harboring terrorists as how people react when they feel threatened. I think that's a bit of a stretch. Or more of an extreme. Most people kept their mouth shut due to possible reprocussions. The McCarthey thing was really a one man war against Hollywood. He scared the population to BELIEVE that communism was a threat. Very similar to what Bush has done his last 8 years.

But relligion is use to doing that as well. Look how the catholic church behaved in Nazi Germany. A little self serving there.

Around here, the only churches that are attacting young people are those huge halls that have an audio/visual department. They play "rock" music. They have lazer light shows. The preachers pace back and forth and rant on a 60 foot screen behind the alter. All flash and bang. Those are the kinds of churches thriving around here. Not the good old fashoned Eposcipal Church. Thier numbers are declining.

Also the issue of homosexuality is driving a ton of new recruits away from the church. The young people are much more tollerant of homosexuality than older people.

I think the term "Christian" has been vilified. You can thank George W. Bush and the last 8 years for that one. He was the Christians Rocky. They loved him and he did nothing for them. Those that didn't like him really blame the christians for the 8 years crap we've had to deal with. I think the days of christians running the White House are long gone, not to return for some time.

I doubt we'll see the day that Roe vs. Wade is overturned. If it hasn't happened yet, I don't see it happening.

Who knows?

But tollerance doesn't mean you have to like it. Doesn't mean you have to accept it. Just means you have to tollerate it.

That's very true.

Granted, I'm projecting somewhat of a worst-case scenario. But if you're not seeing quite a bit of anti-Christian sentiment on this thread, I think you're not looking very closely. It seems to me that people are more interested in declaring "Oh, that's just bullshit" than in hearing an explanation of WHY they believe as they do, and why that determines their positions in certain debates.

The fact is that Christians DO feel under attack in America today, and people under attack retrench to defend themselves. You mention the catholic church in Nazi Germany. That is an example of a 2,000-year old institution that has learned how to survive in a sometimes hostile environment. It compromised, to survive. So Catholics wouldn't be shoved into the ovens too, you see? And of course, there was a lot of resistance among many church members to the Nazis in defiance of both Berlin and Rome. You don't hear so much about that, though.

I actually do see a lot of kids in church though. I live in the Bible Belt and am part of the Roman Catholic church, and it's full of teen-oriented activities as well. Those kids of course interact in the secular world as well, and as I said, they may not be proselytizing, but that doesn't mean they don't have the faith.

Again, they don't talk about it as much out in the world because there's a vocal bias against Christians these days. Kids don't want to be ostracized.

[Bengal]

Lerx,
Good post. There were a bunch of Catholics who worked against the Nazis but the Church as an orginization did not.

They addapted and survived, sure. But at the cost of the Jews.

I wonder if it would have been Lutherans being murdered, would they have reacted different?

But that's all history. And just a small piece of their history.

Anti-Christian sentement, yes I've seen that. But is that the same as "intollerance"? I don't think so. I think they are quite different. So while people like tim might debate and agrue the other side, I doubt hes out beating up christians where ever he lives.

If christians feel under attack, maybe it's because of the last 8 years with a christian in the White House. You know, the one who God told to invade Iraq. That guy. Some people can't split the two George and Christians. But that's part of being popular. Everyone loved you guys in 2000. Now not so much. It's because Bush has led us to war in 2 countries and cost thousands of lives. That's just a normal backlash. Nixon felt it too as did LBJ.

I'm not so sure we won't see an "incident" in or with Iran before Bush leaves office. That's how much I distrust this guy.

So some of that backlash is 8 years of christian policy. That got us here.

But it's good talking to you about it. I'm not trying to change your mind or anything like that. I just like talking about it with people who know what they are talking about.