DragonForce

[Racerx2k]

I saw them in Europe and I have one of their CD's. I try to get into them but just can't. I remember liking that kind of music for about 6 months in the late 80's when Helloweens "Keeper Of The Seven Keys pt. 2" came out. Now it's just kind of boring and slightly comical.

You know, I have agree, completely. the first time I heard the name, I kinda giggled, cause I figured it HAD to be a joke, right? It sounded so melodramatic. Well, then I figured I'd have a honest listen to them, so I went to Youtube for a little. Well, that really didn't do anything but shore up my initial reactions. Yeah, from what I heard, the musicianship was friggin phenominal, to the point that I'm thinking "bullshit, they had to speed that up in the studio!", but, you know, I just can't seem to get past the melodrama.
I'm like you, when Helloween's Keeper Pt. came out, I was all over it, and I was all about Yngwie (Malmsteen, that is, not to confuse him with all the OTHER Yngwies. ), but my days of dungeons, dragons, wizards, rainbows (Yes, even rainbows, Mr. Dio), and all that other mystical shit are over. I certainly won't knock anybody for digging them, cause there IS a musical value, there. I guess it just gets lost in all of the rest, for me.

Now, I need to go listen to some Ramones, to bend my eardrums the other way.

[GodOfRhythm]

The shows I saw were fine. Yeah they missed some notes - you try playing that shit while drinking, running and jumping all over the place, and singing harmonies.

There are a few really bad clips of them playing when very drunk. Very reminiscent of the EVH and Schenker vids which have been posted here, though nothing was worse than the Schenker vid!

DEP goes absolutely fucking NUTS at their live shows and their stuff is infinitely more complicated to play than Dragonforce, yet they DESTROY it, PERFECT TIGHT almost 100% of the time.

[drockilles]

Okay, so i really didn't want to respond to this thread. Without sounding cliche, can't we all just get along? There is no accounting for taste with music. A brief example from my side. My favorite bands go from Testament, Suffocation, Between the Buried and Me, to Cephalic Carnage, to Billy Joel, to Creedence Clearwater, to Sinatra. Tonight, I was rocking out to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA3Pq...eature=related
That song gives me chills, have no idea why. Go ahead, call me a pussy for it. I could care less. Same argument that seems to be going for 9 pages. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.
IMO, if a band/artist can give you goosebumps, that's all that matters. Why argue about it? Of course, this is the happy drunk guy, but if you don't like DF, fuck them, and if you do like DF, fuck yeah, no reason to argue.
Bottom line, we all like what we like. Let it be.

[Endrik]

rave stuff is for fags

no, rave is for fags who use a lot of drugs and happy hardcore is for 12 year olds who become those junkie-fags

[Vass]

This thread rocks! :ROTF:



Only if you're interested in making an impression. I've suffered through this discussion before. For me, the genuine issue is that a growing number of people are willing to set aside the real value of things to avoid offending anyone. This is called relativism, and it is one of the few truly evil things in the world.



Look, it's empirically demonstrable that diamond is harder than banana peel and it's empirically demonstrable that Dragonforce is an incompetent power metal band. Trying to apply a Chomsky-ite world view to the equation doesn't change the facts.




Wrong! (In case you haven't noticed, I'm just havin' some fun with this. I listen to plenty of shit music--and like it.)

Whoooaa slow down there turbo. I thought perhaps you were missing the point when you brought up "class warfare" which has little if anything to do with my earlier comment...and I'm only including "little" out of charity.

You are applying MORAL RELATIVISM to explain why it's OK and even laudable to be rude & dismissive of the artistic tastes of others? You can take all of this a bit too far, pal. Nobody said a dog is a pig is a baby. Just that there may be something worthwhile with a guy's band.

Bring up Chomsky? I'm a moral relativist & Chomsky fanboy because I think that Dragonforce isn't just utter shit, and because I don't think that those who enjoy their music are utter rubes? You've gone a bridge too far, my friend. And you feel you need to explain "moral relativism" to the dummies on the JCF? Well thank you, but I have already long since made it's aquaintence.

If something morally repugnant and you make a stand, that makes you righteous. If someone really likes a band and you take a burning hot shit on them, that does not make you a moral hero. More like an ass. And a pretentious one at that. If we're going to talk about morals and ethics, we might as well speak too of civility.

And please, don't bother responding. I'd hate to make you "suffer through" another conversation with the filthy, filthy hoi poi, who aren't as concerned with the insidious creep of relativism as your cadre. You sound like a bizarro version of the typical 21 year old college kid who just discovered Sarte...."YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, MAAAAAAAAN!"

I recognize you have a particular philosophical argument that you feel strongly about. I feel strongly about it as well. But when all you got is that hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Try rounding out the ol' toolbox.

EDIT TO ADD- I hardly want to set up a jousting match on JCF, and I read back the above & perhaps am being a little harsh. You would, however, be well served to recognize that not everyone you run into is a retard. Only me. Everyone else here's pretty solid.

And I find Chomsky distasteful as well, for the record. Maybe more than distasteful. Civillity!

Vass

[petedz]

Whoooaa slow down there turbo.

Back atcha buddy.

You are applying MORAL RELATIVISM to explain why it's OK and even laudable to be rude & dismissive of the artistic tastes of others?

No. I'm saying that we're coming to a place where nobody can say that the emperor has no clothes. This has nothing to do whatsoever with taste.

Dude, if you looked at my CD collection, you'd see that I listen to and enjoy plenty of music that is of very questionable merit. The point is that one should be permitted to say that A is better than B without censure. It's not merely a difference of tastes/opinions. Neither I nor anybody else should feel obligated to remain silent on the notion that everything is of equal value. It isn't.

If something morally repugnant and you make a stand, that makes you righteous. If someone really likes a band and you take a burning hot shit on them, that does not make you a moral hero.

I took a "red hot burning shit" on someone? The band Dragonforce, yeah. Anyone who listens to them and likes them? Never, ever. ...and no that doesn't make me a moral hero--it makes me a critical listener.

More like an ass. And a pretentious one at that. If we're going to talk about morals and ethics, we might as well speak too of civility. And please, don't bother responding. I'd hate to make you "suffer through" another conversation with the filthy, filthy hoi poi, who aren't as concerned with the insidious creep of relativism as your cadre. You sound like a bizarro version of the typical 21 year old college kid who just discovered Sarte...."YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, MAAAAAAAAN!"

Now you're just ranting. Makes for a fun read, but it doesn't really shed any light.

I recognize you have a particular philosophical argument that you feel strongly about. I feel strongly about it as well. But when all you got is that hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Try rounding out the ol' toolbox.

So if we're talking about something important--say a life or death issue--applying intellectual rigor is OK, but when it comes to something minor and unimportant like art we should hold our noses and our tongues?

EDIT TO ADD- I hardly want to set up a jousting match on JCF, and I read back the above & perhaps am being a little harsh. You would, however, be well served to recognize that not everyone you run into is a retard. Only me. Everyone else here's pretty solid.

This has got to go down as the ultimate in insincerity. Let me paraphrase: "Hey buddy--you're mentally deficient and clueless. That's a fact. Don't bother to argue....I don't mean to be confrontational. Oh, and listen everyone, this guy is calling you a bunch of retards, but I think you're all wonderful. Y'all should listen to me and ignore him cause I like you and he doesn't." WTF :ROTF:

Civillity!

Really?

edit: fixed typos

[Vass]

I don't do parsing and bullet-pointed flame wars. I don't play to the crowd, I'm playing to you. If you feel the weight of others watching, and more importantly care, perhaps that explains the need to distance yourself.

Where you got out of any of that a claim that you're stupid I cannot fathom. Do yourself a favor and never paraphrase. Unless paraphrase in your dictionary means "completely make something up". Which is what you did. Crawl off the cross. There shall be no martyrs today. You're not being censored.

While I think it's ridiculous to go on a rant about Chomsky and relativism in this context (and you must too, since you didn't address that and instead ham-ham-hammered yourself to some timber) you're not stupid. You're just arrogant.

EDIT and now I read your sig, and I want to make up. Like, right now. Kiss me?


Vass

[thetroy]

I like DragonForce, but how on earth names like Mozart, Chopin, Rachmaninov, Sartre, and (to a much lesser extent) Chomsky were brought up is beyond me.

[petedz]

My paraphrase was fair. "ass"; "pretentious"; "bizarro version of the typical 21 year old college kid who just discovered Sarte" can be translated to "mentally deficient and clueless" without breaking a sweat. I don't feel the weight of others watching. I'm having a light hearted conversation with acquaintances (picture standing around the beer keg), and you walked up and started tossing insults. Maybe you weren't playing to the crowd, but you sure had me fooled. I'll forgive you "arrogant" because it's true.

From my perspective, Chomsky fits into this conversation perfectly. This notion that everything is a matter of taste and that all opinions are of equal value doesn't start with him, but his deconstruction of language is the ivory tower excuse for it's acceptance.

Glad you like my sig. I don't swing that way...not that there's anything wrong with it.

[Endrik]

this is interesting...

Vass aren't you judging people and now Pete the way you don't like people do be judged?

Opinion doesn't define people's social class. A lot of upper class people have the same taste that lower class folks have... doesn't make them lower class... they still have the money... (and vice versa).
If you talk about class as some kind of status wich you gain because people respect your views.... then no way people consider you as upper class or lower class or middle class. They think you are an intelligent person... or an asshole if they don't like your views.
I've known some folks who are very respectable among the "culture folks" but some of them are very poor and they acknowledge that fact themselves... that they are poor smucks... and so does the people who respect them. No one thinks of them as upper class.

I'm not sure if you dislike bourgeoisie or snobbery... or both.
Snobbery is a word used too often.
There are many people who like things wich are uncommon just because they do. Of course there are many of those who like uncommon things just for the sake to be "different" but they really aren't "different" because there are many others who act exactly like they do.
Doesn't make any difference if someone with a "common" taste calls someone with "different" taste a snob or someone with "different" taste calls someone with "common" taste a mindless sheep. Both of them are trying to prove their own superiority.
This is very very silly but it's something we all do.

By the way... many of those so called snobs hate upper class and try to avoid to look like them... some go as far as live like bums.

There was a time when many famous and influental film makers did a lot of films about the bourgeoisie. They had so much hatred towards the upper class and some of them had so much praise for marxism. Some dudes like Luis Bunuel did that with humour... some like Jean-Luc Godard went to extremes and even called himself a maoist... I'm sure he later regretted a lot of the things he said.
Anyway those flicks they did were considered too artsy-fartsy by many people (a lot of them who those film makers praised) who also called anyone who liked those flicks snobs.
All this is very funny.
Sometimes when I go to IMDB and read some reviews... then almost every time when it's an art film someone writes something like this:
"I can't believe how many people are praising this movie. It was utter crap. I'm sure none of them understood anything but they try to be so deep and opinionated"
Yet another example that some folks can't understand that some people like things that they do not. This is such a hard thing to understand isn't it.
And that goes for those too who can't understand that some folks just like common things.

I happen to like a lot of artsy films myself... I like a lot of Hollywood stuff too... but because I like Bergman's films more than Armageddon or Gone In 60 Seconds isn't because I like to be "different" or upper class... it's because I think Ingmar Bergman did something what no one else did and he also was very good at it... and of course his work moved me emotionally. That's it. And I'm not gonna call people who like movies wich are full of... let's say what's in my opinion cliches and plots wich have been used billion times before, a bunch of sheep.

We all have our aesthetics values and we tend to judge things wich go against those values. For example Dragonforce is exactly the opposite what I aesthetically value... that's why I don't like them. And with aesthetics I don't mean some certain rules or something that... I'm talking more about interdiclipinary aesthetics... that we can judge things from any point of view.

And when we judge/critizise/bash/etc. it's cool when when 2 things are in order 1)no sugar coating 2)it doesn't get personal
But that's my opinion.

There was a lot of bashing etc. but mostly with humor and not with serious personal attacks except for one new(er) fellow who likes to take things too seriously all the time.

Civility isn't part of "METAL" as far as I know. But then again I was never a metal-head. I hung out mostly with punk or biker crowd where everything was about rebellion. No civility, no sugar coating... you tell it like you see it. I thought metal is kinda like that too... or maybe not. Maybe "Metal" is when you bash everything that's not metal? And metal you don't like isn't not "my cup of tea"?

I like to call something wich I don't like "fucking shit" but that doesn't mean I have the same opinion about the people who like that "fucking shit"
This thread was kinda like that... and Pete didn't attack anyone personally or the general Dragonforce listeners as far as I remember. But now Vass you attacked him. That kinda of action has less civility than talking shit about some stupid band.

[GodOfRhythm]

By the way... many of those so called snobs hate upper class and try to avoid to look like them... some go as far as live like bums.

[tanpsi]

This thread rocks! :ROTF:



Only if you're interested in making an impression. I've suffered through this discussion before. For me, the genuine issue is that a growing number of people are willing to set aside the real value of things to avoid offending anyone. This is called relativism, and it is one of the few truly evil things in the world.



Look, it's empirically demonstrable that diamond is harder than banana peel and it's empirically demonstrable that Dragonforce is an incompetent power metal band. Trying to apply a Chomsky-ite world view to the equation doesn't change the facts.




Wrong! (In case you haven't noticed, I'm just havin' some fun with this. I listen to plenty of shit music--and like it.)

Ayn Rand would agree with me that DF rules because they are epic and heroic!

[Maximum_Crunch]

I'm not a huge fan of DF's but it would be cool to see them open for Manowar(who i am a huge fan of) or Malmsteen(also huge fan). Would kinda set the mood.

[GodOfRhythm]

If you want TRUE, emotionally impacting JOY, HEROISM and a sense of LUST FOR LIFE--> Beethoven's 5th, last movement. And of course his 9th, which is, in my humble opinion still the best piece of music I've ever heard. I've got the Vienna Philharmonic under Kleiber version of the 5th and 7th, dear god.......


Any 'I don't want classical music' argument is NULL AND VOID, since you hinged must of your argument on the experience and expression of those emotions. Not trying to establish superiority here in any way, just trying to point you towards some music you might fall in love with, if you haven't already.

[Spivonious]

If you want TRUE, emotionally impacting JOY, HEROISM and a sense of LUST FOR LIFE-->

Beethoven's 5th, last movement.

and of course his 9th, which is, in my humble opinion still the best piece of music I've ever heard.

Ahh, the 5th. That's close to perfection IMO, especially those last two movements. The 9th though....I've always thought old B should have hung up the skates before then.