Anti Virus Software

[OnlineStageGear]

Huh?

dude, I don't care HOW computer savvy anyone thinks they are, if your PC is hooked to the internet, and you DON'T have antivirus software, you're playing with fire. And when there's decent FREE ones? Then not having one is just stupid. All it takes is one little virus, embedded in a site, and you're screwed.

He just thinks he doesn't have a virus. LOL. I have used AVG for years and have put it on almost every customer PC I work on and I haven't had any real problems. I have seen Norton and especially McAfee cause more problems than you can imagine. They are resource hogs and are very unstable.

Matt

[OnlineStageGear]

Consumer Reports magazine tested all of the major anti-virus systems and PC Cillin came out #1 in every category. AVG free failed miserably.

That is the same Consumer Reports that rated Behr Premuim Paints #1 and it is about the worst crap on the market.

[CharvelRocker]

He just thinks he doesn't have a virus. LOL. I have used AVG for years and have put it on almost every customer PC I work on and I haven't had any real problems. I have seen Norton and especially McAfee cause more problems than you can imagine. They are resource hogs and are very unstable.

Matt

McAfee was great until recently. Now they changed it, and not only is it a pain in the ass (nags you about everything, and feels the need to block internet access for programs as if you didn't have a fire wall and it auto updates on it's own, which can be a PC killer) to use, but it's also not as easy to work imo. They really ramped up the number of side programs it needs. It does however do it's job well. What it does in between however...

EDIT: And you know, if everyone got a Mac, then virus makers would realize people use them and make virus's for them. But Mac users and backwards thinking go hand in hand (granted it's a great OS, but under supported and is plagued by horrible software made by Apple, which is one of the few people that support it.)

[Racerx2k]

He just thinks he doesn't have a virus. LOL.
Matt

Hehe. That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't gonna be the first to say it! I already get blamed of picking on enough people, already!

[OnlineStageGear]

I'll take my 14 year track record of having the computer connected to the Internet with no viruses as proof of my not needing an antivirus program. You have to give permission (at least since IE5) to let any embedded program on a website run. Don't know what it is? Then don't click the "Allow" button. Simple enough.

Of course, since I'm on Vista I use IE7 with Protected Mode, so even if I am an idiot and install some malicious web control, it is physically impossible for it to get to my computer, since IE7 runs in its own sandbox.

If you are running Vista and IE7, and you haven't disabled Protected Mode and/or UAC, then you are completely safe from any hidden viruses or spyware.

Dude, I don't want to stur up any crap or offend you in any way but there are tons of viruses out there that will attack you through web pages and will have no clue untill it is too late. There was one for a while embeded in a JPG file that just looking at the picture on a web site would tank your system. All you needed to do was bring up a web site with that picture on it and within 1 minute your PC would be un-usable. You could have had all your security setting maxed out and it wouldn't matter. HippieTim can tell you about that one.

[MartinBarre]

AVG Free

Yes

[Sunbane]

Dude, I don't want to stur up any crap or offend you in any way but there are tons of viruses out there that will attack you through web pages and will have no clue untill it is too late.

+1. Anyone who think they don't need any antivirus, go to Panda Active Scan and run a scan of your computer. You would be surprised at what you have running on your computer.

I have used AVG Free for quite a while, and it works well. However, if you can afford to pay for antivirus, I can HIGHLY recommend NOD32. Being the opposite of bloatware, it's very tight and is completely unobtrusive (even more so than AVG). You will never know NOD32 is running until it catches something, and that's how an antivirus shold be.

[shobet]

EDIT: And you know, if everyone got a Mac, then virus makers would realize people use them and make virus's for them. But Mac users and backwards thinking go hand in hand (granted it's a great OS, but under supported and is plagued by horrible software made by Apple, which is one of the few people that support it.)

Mac bashing is just as weak as bashing Windows, I just don't get it. It's the whole my thing's better than your thing that seems to be going on a lot here lately. You make sweeping generalisations about all Mac users, have you met them all? It may have a smaller user base than Windows, but I doubt you've met us all!

I agree with you that OS X represents a smaller target, but like every other piece of software on the planet it has bugs which people can exploit.

What horrible, unsupported software are you on about? Is it the Microsoft products that are not supported? Maybe the Adobe products? I believe almost all of the worlds leading software companies ship products that run on OS X. Show me something I can't do on my Mac that you can on a Windows or Linux box? But you could argue that there's nothing on the Mac you can't do on another platform as well.

I use OS X out of choice as it suits my work and personal requirements better than any of the other platforms our there. I have Linux and Windows virtual machines on here as well as I need use them on occasion for testing purposes. Others will have different needs and requirement so they'll use what they want. I don't belittle them for having different tastes to me, I'm all in favour of people having the choice.

I'll go back to my backward thinking now shall I...

[CharvelRocker]

Mac bashing is just as weak as bashing Windows, I just don't get it. It's the whole my thing's better than your thing that seems to be going on a lot here lately. You make sweeping generalisations about all Mac users, have you met them all? It may have a smaller user base than Windows, but I doubt you've met us all!

I agree with you that OS X represents a smaller target, but like every other piece of software on the planet it has bugs which people can exploit.

What horrible, unsupported software are you on about? Is it the Microsoft products that are not supported? Maybe the Adobe products? I believe almost all of the worlds leading software companies ship products that run on OS X. Show me something I can't do on my Mac that you can on a Windows or Linux box? But you could argue that there's nothing on the Mac you can't do on another platform as well.

I use OS X out of choice as it suits my work and personal requirements better than any of the other platforms our there. I have Linux and Windows virtual machines on here as well as I need use them on occasion for testing purposes. Others will have different needs and requirement so they'll use what they want. I don't belittle them for having different tastes to me, I'm all in favour of people having the choice.

I'll go back to my backward thinking now shall I...

Note I said the OS is probably better than windows. Mac software is always crap it seems, even when used on a Mac machine. iTunes, whatever they can their stock internet browser nowadays, quicktime are the huge culprits. Seems like they made something else that was horrible, but it's slipping my mind as I just woke up. Their wireless stuff used to be garbage too unless they've changed it big time the past 2-3 years.

Next, it seems Mac users, whenever a PC discussion come up, say get a MAc. I mean seriously, people always tout how safe Mac is and how superior it is. Mac is safer, it's because it has a small user base, and thus not nearly as many people to target and cause problems.


Under supported software? If you exclude the fact Mac probably supports a handful of games. Most smaller bits of software tend to be designed with windows in mind. 3 guesses as to why... That said, it probably has the best options in Studio software. Other than that I have not seen many other types of ware that favor Macs in terms of availability.

Finally, Macs tend to cost more than other comparable units. I've found if you want to do much beyond internet browsing and music, you probably want to look at a PC. OS-X works smoother and is more hassle free than windows, but it is very under-supported by third parties in what I've seen.

[OnlineStageGear]

Doesn't Mac now use Intel processors and runs Windows XP. That would make Mac a PC.

[Spivonious]

Dude, I don't want to stur up any crap or offend you in any way but there are tons of viruses out there that will attack you through web pages and will have no clue untill it is too late. There was one for a while embeded in a JPG file that just looking at the picture on a web site would tank your system. All you needed to do was bring up a web site with that picture on it and within 1 minute your PC would be un-usable. You could have had all your security setting maxed out and it wouldn't matter. HippieTim can tell you about that one.

I had never heard of the JPEG virus before your post, so I googled it. Here's details from an antivirus maker's website:

Here are the simple details of this incident:

1. It's not a virus. The posted JPEG is actually a trojan downloader. It has no ability to spread on its own.
2. It only affects users with Windows XP Service Pack 1.
3. It's does not automatically execute on reading the message. The JPEG must be saved into a local folder, then the mouse pointer must be moved over the JPEG file's icon.
4. The file is detected by all major antivirus engines with current virus definition files. Because of the nature of the JPEG format, it is impossible to disguise an infected JPEG file. So current signatures should detect ALL future attempts to exploit this vulnerability

Here's what Microsoft has to say:

"Microsoft does not consider this a high risk to customers given the amount of user action required to execute the attack and is not currently aware of any significant customer impact," the software giant said in a statement. "We will continue to investigate the situation and provide customers with additional resources and guidance as necessary."

I'm not offended, it's just that I like people to know the facts when it comes to viruses. If you are running XP SP2 or higher, nothing can install without your permission. For even more security, Vista has the UAC, which forces you to approve any action that requires system access. 64-bit Vista prevents any program from accessing the kernel, which is how most of the serious viruses do their dirty work. IE7 in Protected Mode runs inside of its own virtual machine. Even if a virus gets through on a webpage, it can only ever bring down IE7. It is physically impossible for it to access your system unless you download it, run it outside of IE, and click Yes when UAC asks for permission.

Would it satisfy the non-believers if I went out and did a virus scan? I can assure you, it will find nothing.

Tim can back up everything I've said here if he sees this thread.

[UFORocks]

Yes, it would.

Edit: Just a side note. I admittedly know very little about windows Vista, and from the little that i've used it my opinion is that I dont love it. I guess when it comes down to it, I dont see the reason to swtich. Anyway, I found a MSDN article about Protected Mode in Vista. The article doesnt mention anything about virtual machines that I saw. "Protected Mode" in conjunction with "UAC" basically creates another layer of permissions to run common applications like IE. You're not running IE7 in its own 'sand box' or virtual machine, you're just no longer running it as an administrator. This has been done in Unix for years now, its called "Sudo", and has been a part of both MAC (freebsd unix based) and Linux OSs for many years now.

Personally Im holding out for Windows 7, which is supposed to be a complete rewrite of the OS, not just another version of XP with a new UI and a handful of 'so so' features.

As to the virus issue, I think a lot of people confuse viruses with exploits and vulnerabilities. If you leave UAC activated, use common sense when browsing the net, and dont accidentially allow something to run that you shouldn't then you should be ok 99% of the time. But you have to make sure you have automatic updates on and install new patches when they're available, especially patches for security vulnerabilities.

Where the AV software is important is in protecting you from yourself. All it takes is one bad click, and with out that AV you're never gonna know until its too late.


-Steve

[toejam]

Would it satisfy the non-believers if I went out and did a virus scan?

Yes. Download Avast and do a scan.

http://www.avast.com/eng/download-avast-home.html

[hippietim]

I'm not offended, it's just that I like people to know the facts when it comes to viruses.

No offense dude but you need to get your facts straight before you post.

If you are running XP SP2 or higher, nothing can install without your permission.

Not true at all. Not even close. Installing software is not magic. Installing software is a matter of a process running and copying files and configuring the system. This is true on Windows, the Mac, Linux, Unix, MVS, VMS, etc. In order to impact the system as a whole, the process doing the copying and configuring needs to be running with the privileges to make those changes. Unless you specify otherwise, processes run with the privilege of the user that invoked them. Most Windows and Mac (and yes even Linux) users typically run with sufficient privileges (aka. administrator/root) to royally fuck themselves.

So given that, the only way that you are protected is if the software you are running has the proper protection mechanisms built in. Most browsers do a fairly effective job of doing what you say - but there is so much software running out there.

In spirit what you said is true though because very few people actually get hosed by secret/hidden exploits. The truth of the matter is most people get horked because they do say "yes" to the seemingly random messages that pop up that end up installing spyware/malware. It is unfortunate the way this stuff is presented in current browsers - "warning, installing this could be blah, blah, blah". People get numb to that because it is the same experience they get installing legitimate software like Flash. The net effect of the user experience is that the message should just say "please click yes to continue".

For even more security, Vista has the UAC, which forces you to approve any action that requires system access.

Yes it does. But it is not as big a saviour as you may think. All that UAC does is lower your user privileges (and therefore all the programs you run) to that of a "normal" user. It only prevents apps from mucking with locked down directories and configuration. It does not prevent an application from mucking with your user directories and configuration. So while the system and other users are protected from buggy and/or nefarious software that you run, your account is not. This has always been true on Windows (NT-based) and Unix/Linux and OS/X when you are running as a non-administrator account.

64-bit Vista prevents any program from accessing the kernel, which is how most of the serious viruses do their dirty work.

That's nothing new, 32-bit Windows prevents access to the kernel as well (as do OS/X, Linux, etc.)

IE7 in Protected Mode runs inside of its own virtual machine.

It does not. IE7 in protected mode runs in a mode that grants it almost no privileges to the system (including your user account info). It works by launching a stub application that creates a highly restricted token and then launches the actual browser with that restricted token.

Tim can back up everything I've said here if he sees this thread.

Heh. See above.

[hippietim]

I've been online since the early 80's on BBS's and CompuServe. I have never once had a virus of any kind. I've gotten one piece of spyware and I pretty much knew it was coming with something else I was installing.

The computer I connect to work with has anti-virus software as dictated by corporate IT policy. Other than that, none.

There's just a couple simple things to do to not get fucked:

1) Keep up with the updates to your software - not just IE - that means Quicktime, Windows Media Player, Opera, Mozilla, iTunes, Flash, Firefox, AIM, Eudora, Acrobat, Safari, etc. All of them have had serious security exploits. And there is a very high probability you haven't heard about them - these companies all release fixes for unpublished exploits all the time.

2) If your browser/music player/reader/whatever crashes then you are vulnerable. This is the #1 attack vector. If someone can get a program to crash predictably with online content, then there is a VERY high probability that they can pwn you. Upgrade. Switch programs. Either way just stop using the software if it crashes a lot - there is plenty of other software.

3) Pay attention. Read the stupid ass messages that your software pops up. If you have ANY doubt, click no/cancel. You can always reload the page if you decide it's ok.