World War 3, 08/08/08 Is it starting today?

[lerxstcat]

Noone is suggesting us military action, because i don't think the us needs any more than some kind of military presence on russia's doorstep to get it's point across. Russia will know washington is keeping a close eye on the kremlin.

That's dangerous though, because if the Russians call the bluff and attack our troops in Georgia, we would pretty much have to go to a nuclear option against Russian troops. Not ICBMs, but tactical nukes to take out combat formations of Russian troops. Bush has already said he'll use nukes preemptively if he has to, though that was against Saddam's Iraq army.

That could be the beginning of a real disaster way beyond what's happening in Georgia.

[CharvelRocker]

That's dangerous though, because if the Russians call the bluff and attack our troops in Georgia, we would pretty much have to go to a nuclear option against Russian troops. Not ICBMs, but tactical nukes to take out combat formations of Russian troops. Bush has already said he'll use nukes preemptively if he has to, though that was against Saddam's Iraq army.

That could be the beginning of a real disaster way beyond what's happening in Georgia.

I do no think the US would use nuclear weapons. No one would take that plunge for a number of reasons, the big one being it would be political suicide. Personally, I would not be shocked if Russia tried something thpigh, particularly with them dragging their feet with troop withdraws. Why go through all this trouble and not take the country while you're at the capitals doorstep?

[Soap]

I think we should use a nuke here and there whether you agree or disagree makes no difference to me. All bullies and club members need to be shut down. It would thrill me to hear tomorrow Russian leaders and all their kind fell off the earth.
Same for oil company big shots and any other nation with idiots and bullies running the show and that includes America. I'm sick of such ridiculous nonsense. Let the civil decent people have it back and run this thing like it should be. I can crap better crap then what crap they are shoving in our faces.

As far as having another fuel/energy alternative?
It'll take 20+ yrs before anything decent can happen.
That concern is locked down tight by oil companies and tree huggers.
That crap will takes years to get through a committee. Then when that committee is done theres another one it has to get through. That crap is locked down tight. So let the whole energy alternative concern go and move on. Too many very important hands all over the world have their hands in the energy oil cookie jar.

That pipeline is very important to many countries and if gets into the wrong hands (dictators) many innocent people will suffer immensely around the world. That means you and me as well. If we already had another energy alternative in place that pipeline wouldn't mean diddly squat.

[Endrik]

you do understand that using a nuke would mean the end of the world?

[Bengal]

you do understand that using a nuke would mean the end of the world?

I'm guessing by his post that he doesn't care.

[Hellbat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40OR-JtfP_Y

[SEEGERMANY]

you do understand that using a nuke would mean the end of the world?

Well I wish someone would hurry up and decide so I can determine if I need to make my next house note!

[Soap]

Not necessarily, a little suit case nuke or something to that effect would minimize the many ills that plaque the civil decent people of this world, and get much attention that don't come to the table if don't intend to negotiate in right attitude.

[Rsmacker]

Doesn't really matter, as the Russian military is a hollow shell of what it once was. India could kick their ass in a shooting war, China has colonized nearly the entire eastern half of the country, the mighty Russian navy has rusted away, their space program dependant on other nations to launch anything.

Which is why they are so dangerous, like a mangy old dog near the end of his days. They remember what they used to be, what they were capable of, and won't be able to simply accept they are just one of the many Eastern European nations trying to be top dog. The problem is that they have all the nukes and Chemical/Bio shit lying around in neglected military facilities waiting to be used, or at least waved around as a threat. The fact that they haven't got the endless reserves of manpower they used to have means they may be more inclined to use these weapons as intimidation. That's fine, until you get some dickhead in Washington who doesn't think it's just sabre-rattling, and decides to get his retaliation in first. All of a sudden it's Game On. (Or Over!)

Anyone who thinks this is way too insignificant to ignite a major conflict is not thinking it through. Suppose Boris in charge of his SAM sees a big fat juicy military plane coming over and thinks it's his chance of glory, so he drops it. Alas, it's a US plane. What then? The world is watching, what then? Does the US simply excuse it, or do they puff their chest up and saddle up some serious hardware to wave at the Russians?

This is a very dangerous time for everyone with Mr Bush currently packing his stuff up at the White House. What do you think the chances are of him scampering out of office and being known forever as the President who squirted shit into his underpants when Putin & Co said Boo? No chance.
He wants to ride into the sunset with everyone cheering and praising him for showing the world how the US never loses. He's failed to do that in Afghanistan and Iraq, but a limited spat on the ground in Georgia might be just the ticket, it's proper warfare, what the troops have trained for.

Now, I'm not saying he's tapped enough to be wanting to go head to head with the Reds, but maybe, if they did take out any help he sends in.......

Already the media are criticising him for his weak condemnations so far, it won't be long before the cartoonists at home are picturing him with a miniscule pair of balls being buttfucked by Putin the bodybuilder, and there is no fucking way he would simply shrug his shoulders and say "Fuck it, I'm off to my ranch to be fellated by young boys, I'm retiring, byeeeee!" is there?

[lerxstcat]

I do no think the US would use nuclear weapons. No one would take that plunge for a number of reasons, the big one being it would be political suicide. Personally, I would not be shocked if Russia tried something thpigh, particularly with them dragging their feet with troop withdraws. Why go through all this trouble and not take the country while you're at the capitals doorstep?

Political suicide for who? Bush? He's done as President, you think he means to run for mayor of Crawford, Texas? You think he even cares about McCain's chances in the coming election? His party has somewhat blown him off already; he might not care politically.

The problem is that Bush has already declared a preemptive strike policy as far back as 2003. Knowing that, the Russians might even make a preemptive strike of their own, since they know that's the only thing we have available to use against them.

[lerxstcat]

you do understand that using a nuke would mean the end of the world?

Not necessarily. Tactical nukes used against, say, Russian tank divisions would probably result in Russian use of tactical nukes against, say, one of our carrier groups in the Persian Gulf. Then each side would realize that the next step was ICBMs and would stop and negotiate a ceasefire.

At that point Georgia might not matter to either side any more, and both parties would act to make sure it didn't spread to the heartland. Each side would feel it drew serious blood and could therefore save face while saying it took strong action.

Eventually there IS going to be a limited nuclear war somewhere. My bet is Israel vs. Iran or Pakistan vs. India, but it could be a proxy war fought between the US and Russia on the soil of nations allied to one or the other.

Luckily for Endrik it's not apt to be fought in Estonia. It's starting to look like Ukraine should have kept its nukes and big army, though. From Russian claims that there were Ukrainians manning Georgian tanks, it sounds like they want to go after Ukraine next.

NATO will probably pledge to defend Ukraine even though it hasn't joined NATO yet, and that will set the stage for the next big war if it hasn't already started over Georgia.

[Soap]

Not necessarily. Tactical nukes used against, say, Russian tank divisions would probably result in Russian use of tactical nukes against, say, one of our carrier groups in the Persian Gulf. Then each side would realize that the next step was ICBMs and would stop and negotiate a ceasefire.

Exactly, and not in those same words but that's what I said earlier as well.

[lerxstcat]

Yep, I saw your post and agreed with it so I thought I'd reinforce it. People think nukes will never be used but once they were made small enough to be used on the battlefield, I think the ideas of military commanders changed so they would use it if they felt it was necessary.

[bibz]

Look how batshit insane some of you are. The scariest part is I used to think there were systems in place to never let idiots have power, but obviously that was just naivity on my point. Nukes? Fucking hell. Hold on to one word to rally around everytime possible, theres a million better ways to fight, but its not necessary. Like most things this will be done behind closed doors, using scare tactics and bs. Georgia went to iraq, they now have big powerful friends. It's just russia flexing muscle til they realise thier boundaries (which used to be borders, used to be!) then they'll get tapped on the noggin to go back in and look tough again.

If this starts any actual conflict between the powers I will lose all faith in humanity and breed my own army of pointy-toting rebels.

[SpiralArchitect]

use a nuke, however small it is, regardless of where and what for, and it would set off insanity, there would be no negotiations, you either launch a premptive first strike and throw in your all your chips fast, or you risk the same, which would happen anyway, which is why Mutually Assured Destruction works so well, it either will happen on a grand scale or not at all, but there is no pissing on the floor and mopping it up, just my opinion, but reading alot about the subject over a long period of time and this is MY conclusion.


C