Americans: Never talk to the police!

[Jayster]

Couldn't agree more with what you said. Courtesy is mutual. What I fail to understand is why someone can be so much as looked at by a police officer and feel persecution? As children, we are taught that police are good, are meant to be trusted and function on the side of law abiding citizens. I don't dispute that there are bad cops, there are bad preachers, doctors and lawyers too. Life is too damn short to be afraid of the good guys; that kind of paranoia is not healthy.

Wow - Joelski , I'm sorry to disagree. We're not taught that police are good. The media has a field day with anything(they can find) that's been done wrong. This and movies and music(fuck every kind pretty much(metal definitly has a fuck the police attitude, so does rap and rock and country and blues, etc....)). I bet this pisses off the good cops, being pre-judged on some BS like movies and music or what some other cop in NYC did when their making sacrifices for a low paying and thankless job. However hehehehehehehe .......... guilt by association(it's funny the other way around isn't it) comes into play.

I have a K9 cop that lives across the street from me, he has for 10 years. We've never had any problems(and sometimes(3-5 week, I'm kicking out the jams with 2 stacks, bass and drums- shudder\ sometimes even vocals)). Sometimes my friends are loud and dumb in my yard, we don't curse(to much), however I've always treated him like I'd like to be treated and I'm glad he's my neighbor.

AK: The general public (AKA: society) does not spend their waking hours thinking about rights and the law; that is what we pay police and polititians, etc.. for. Your response was predictable: Paint with a broad brush and see the bad in every cop; paint with a broad brush to downplay my point. I am truly sorry that conditions are such where you live that you feel this way about law enforcement.

Is not this exactly what I've heard in defense of 'presumed guilt' because of silence. Quite frankly the general public should spend much more time thinking about their rights and the law, every case of things going wrong in a country did not happen in one day.

However being paranoid is subjective, I think AK is a very intelligent person(who's coming across wrong - because he's passionately talking about something something true and dear to his heart. I encourage any of you to read Patrick Henry's speech "give me liberty or give me death" http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html ................ This will explain why someone will get passionate, we personally don't want to get this type of situation again.(is that paranoid - you decide).

So in closing my third and final time(in this post) :

So in closing(end of rambling)

Let's try to show a little more respect to the police

AND let's not shit on the constitution.


Merry Christmass all
Jay

EDIT: damn a whole page has been written while I was drunkenly composing this. Possible edits for drunken nonsense coming tommorow - but as of this minute, I am fully suportive of this message.

[AK47]

I think we can finally close this thread on a good note... I hope.

Always do use common sence and treat all LEOs with respect but dont bend over just because they ask you to. Here is a quote from another forum I visit by another LEO:


"I agree with (edit). SO the fuck what. He consented to a search. He should be in jail. If you have ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING at all including one pot seed and give me consent to search. Pray I don't find it or your going to jail. Its called stupid tax. You do something stupid and gave me a reason to visit with you. EVEN if someone else did something stupid and you just happened to be there guess what? Your consent, if I ask then gives me the right to all but stick the gloved fingers up your ass. WITHOUT the KY.

po-po"

It was a discussion in refrence to someone who concented to search when there was no PC but the offficer asked and found contraband.

[Jayster]

Watching civilains argue over cop shit is very amusing. I'm an not versed in the physics of radioactive quasars or political science...so I stay out of those conversations...like a wise man should.

Bill,

I happen to be a nuclear astrophysicist and political science major, if you have any questions feel free to come to me for advice.

hahahahahahaha, Merry Christmas to you and Val and Vinnie. Sorry to hear about all the BS you've got going on, enjoy the holidays
Jay

[phill_up]

AK47, I am going to enter you in a marathon my Brotha' !

[lerxstcat]

This is BS most criminals incriminate themselves. Watch COPS all the arrests are mostly made by statements of the perps against themselves.

When you plead the 5th or lawyer up there is no questioning to go to. If it makes it as far as court that is the time to answer questions if you so chose to. LE's job is not to take statements and use it as evidence for you ever.

It's not BS, but if you think COPS really shows how it is, you're wrong. More like America's Dumbest Criminals.

You might have your local PD cowed, but in most jurisdictions in the US if a cop asks you who you are, in a high crime zone,. and you refuse to show ID or answer any questions, you are going to be taken down to the station. If you want to pay your lawyer to come get you out when you could have just said "I'm AK47. I'm on my way to the corner store to buy a 6-pack of beer. Here's my ID" and been on your way in 15 minutes, that's your business. It just seems to be a big waste of everybody's time.

Not only that, but if they ARE bad cops as you imply, then you fucking with them invites them to set you up. Kilo of coke in the trunk of your car and you're up the creek, man. Not that hard to arrange, and of course everyone in prison is innocent, so you'd fit right in.

Knowing, as I do, that these things can be done, I make sure to NOT antagonize any cops with a "Nyah Nyah, I know my rights!" routine. I DO know my rights - and I know how people on both sides of the law can circumvent the law's intent.

[Jayster]

It's not BS,
- and I know how people on both sides of the law can circumvent the law's intent.

And that dos'nt bother you ? Dude, my poor spelling aside. Your flogging a dead horse, read the thread.

[VinceV]

Jesus, for a second felt like I was on Calguns!!!!
Boo, Mono is that you?

[AK47]

It's not BS, but if you think COPS really shows how it is, you're wrong. More like America's Dumbest Criminals.

You might have your local PD cowed, but in most jurisdictions in the US if a cop asks you who you are, in a high crime zone,. and you refuse to show ID or answer any questions, you are going to be taken down to the station. If you want to pay your lawyer to come get you out when you could have just said "I'm AK47. I'm on my way to the corner store to buy a 6-pack of beer. Here's my ID" and been on your way in 15 minutes, that's your business. It just seems to be a big waste of everybody's time.

Not only that, but if they ARE bad cops as you imply, then you fucking with them invites them to set you up. Kilo of coke in the trunk of your car and you're up the creek, man. Not that hard to arrange, and of course everyone in prison is innocent, so you'd fit right in.

Knowing, as I do, that these things can be done, I make sure to NOT antagonize any cops with a "Nyah Nyah, I know my rights!" routine. I DO know my rights - and I know how people on both sides of the law can circumvent the law's intent.

I was using the Cops show as an example. I have personally seen how the system works and have seen LEO's testify and lie on the stand. I have witnessed them change reports after the fact to make a bust stick. Its OK to them because its for the greater good of society.

As has been proven in this thread its for the greater good that society remains ignorant of their rights. It makes LE's job that much easier. If you think out side the box and educate yourself of your rights well you must me a criminal or extremely paranoid.

Just because you are in a "High Crime" area does not mean you are in a "Civil rights do not apply area". You have to remember that citizens of our country live in these areas and just because of some bad apples in the neighborhood we have to use Gestapo tactics and demand papers? I should be required to show them when I am walking minding my own business because I cant afford better housing?

I am fortunate to live in a nice area now so I have not had any LE interaction in years but I feel for those that get stopped and hassled for no reason other than they live in a shitty neighborhood.

[lerxstcat]

And that dos'nt bother you ? Dude, my poor spelling aside. Your flogging a dead horse, read the thread.

I'm responding to AK directly saying something I said was BS. I'm going to respond to someone telling me something is BS when I know better. I haven't lived through this shit for 50 years in different parts of the country to be told that the way it is in the Bay Area is the way it is everywhere.

Regardless of whether people circumventing the law bothers me, it is what it is, to the extent that AK's "Lawyer up" advice could get someone hurt, framed or even killed in some parts of this great but wildly imperfect land of ours. So I'm going to take exception with it whether it bothers you to read me repeat it or not.

Because if someone on this board gets tossed into holding and buttfucked by Bubba because they thought AK was cool, and find out shit don't work that way in their little corner of Paradise, I will at least know they had a chance to read a more pragmatic point of view on the subject.

Can you dig that, little brother? I wouldn't want to see that happen to you either, and from some of your stories when you joined I know you're in danger of it. Pissing outside where the cop neighbor can see you and shit, not too smart. Unless that was someone else; I think it was you though.

[lerxstcat]

I was using the Cops show as an example. I have personally seen how the system works and have seen LEO's testify and lie on the stand. I have witnessed them change reports after the fact to make a bust stick. Its OK to them because its for the greater good of society.

As has been proven in this thread its for the greater good that society remains ignorant of their rights. It makes LE's job that much easier. If you think out side the box and educate yourself of your rights well you must me a criminal or extremely paranoid.

Just because you are in a "High Crime" area does not mean you are in a "Civil rights do not apply area". You have to remember that citizens of our country live in these areas and just because of some bad apples in the neighborhood we have to use Gestapo tactics and demand papers? I should be required to show them when I am walking minding my own business because I cant afford better housing?

I am fortunate to live in a nice area now so I have not had any LE interaction in years but I feel for those that get stopped and hassled for no reason other than they live in a shitty neighborhood.

As was said earlier in the thread, most states DO require you by law to show police ID if asked when walking down the street, for no other reason than they have the authority to require you to do that. You're using loaded language by calling it a Gestapo tactic, since I believe that even in Colonial and early independent times it was customary that a lawman could ask you to show your papers. If you can find something in the Constitution that prohibits police from asking for ID, though, I'm open to read iot if you'll point me to it.

Point is, you live in a nice neighborhood now and you don't get hassled. Be practical and realize that the bad neighborhoods are somewhat of war zones. The residents and the police alike have PTDS because violence is constantly taking place around them.

Expecting everything in those circumstances to go by the book and be picture=perfect is completely unrealistic. You also live in a state that's among the most liberal. The ID policy your state uses where people can't be forced to produce ID is due to a very liberal view of the Constitution and might fly in maybe New York, Massachusetts and Connecticut, and probably not many more states than that, if even that.

The policy you're defending is an aberration and not the common policy in the majority of states. Representing it as such is misrepresentation and could lead some of our JCF bros into trouble by telling them they can do that.

[AK47]

I'm responding to AK directly saying something I said was BS. I'm going to respond to someone telling me something is BS when I know better. I haven't lived through this shit for 50 years in different parts of the country to be told that the way it is in the Bay Area is the way it is everywhere.

Regardless of whether people circumventing the law bothers me, it is what it is, to the extent that AK's "Lawyer up" advice could get someone hurt, framed or even killed in some parts of this great but wildly imperfect land of ours. So I'm going to take exception with it whether it bothers you to read me repeat it or not.

Because if someone on this board gets tossed into holding and buttfucked by Bubba because they thought AK was cool, and find out shit don't work that way in their little corner of Paradise, I will at least know they had a chance to read a more pragmatic point of view on the subject.

Can you dig that, little brother? I wouldn't want to see that happen to you either, and from some of your stories when you joined I know you're in danger of it. Pissing outside where the cop neighbor can see you and shit, not too smart. Unless that was someone else; I think it was you though.

I hope people take my advice because they think the Bill of Rights is cool not me. I did not write any of the ammendmants. I just educate people what their rights are.

If you are in some back woods 100s of miles away from home by your lonesome in your car and you get pulled over by Mayberry it may just be a good idea to coporate. Its a call you have to make. BTW most people dont get raped in jail. It happens more in prison but is not common like in the movies. Its a stereotype perpetuated by LEO's to intimidate citizens into coporation.

If a crooked cop is going to plant dope on you he is going to do it anyways.

I think if the founding fathers read this entire thread they would be now spinning at high RPMs in their grave.

[lerxstcat]

If the founding father knew that heavily armed drug gangs ruled our inner cities and were protected by the ACLU from the police eliminating those criminal gangs that terrorize the citizens in those areas, they would spin in their graves over that too. They didn't envision our society going in that direction. They'd probably send in the army to exterminate them the way they did Indians who caused trouble. Remember the founding fathers had no problem not applying due process to Indian tribes.

Having your rights is one thing; again, knowing where and when you can realistically assert them is another. Oh, and jailhouse rapes not common? Who told you that? Half the state prisoners in my state are sleeping on floors in county jails that are way past capacity.

Living in the Bay Area is like living in a bubble compared to the way it is in most of the country. Anybody who has been around the country can tell you that. Your advice is dangerous, and not just to people way out in the sticks.

Most jurisdictions are not as liberal as the one you live in, and the Constitution is subject to different interpretations in different parts of this country. Your advice would probably fly in California and the Northeast. In the rest of the country it could possibly get someone into trouble where they didn't have to.

I think that is irresponsible, that's all - unless you want to fly to Georgia and bail Jayster out because he decides to lawyer up walking down the street based on your statement. Georgia is Republican country and a law-an-order mentality prevails over the right to deny ID to the police and refuse to talk to them.

That would be interpreted as suspicious and he would be hauled in for 24 hours. He doesn't have to be allowed to call his lawyer until he's Mirandized, he doesn't have to be Mirandized until he's charged, and he can be held for 24 hours before he's charged, or just released after 24 hours without being charged.

Then he goes to his boss and says he missed work because he was in jail. What for? No charges. When his boss heard the story he would probably fire him, because he could have avoided 24 hours in jail by just cooperating.

That would possibly happen in most everywhere between New York and California. Employers would see it, not as an act of civil disobedience, but as a dumb move by a troublemaker, and send him down the road. You can do that in a right-to-work state. No unions, no Labor Boards like in Cali.

I'm not commenting on the right or wrong of these things. It is what it is. So if you think that's good advice to give a young guy where it will adversely affect his life, while you live under different conditions, well I don't know what to tell you.

If you think him being a prick to the cops and getting thrown in jail for 24 hours is going to speed the revolution, I believe you are wrong. It will just cause turmoil for those who follow that advice. Turmoil that you will not personally have to suffer.

[Davey]

If you are walking on the street and aproached for no reason. Tell the officer you have no time to talk you are on your way somewhere. If you just stay quiet you are going to be fucked with. Then you repeat "Are you detaining me or am I free to leave." He will ask for ID but keep repeating that. If he actually has enough to detain that means STFU as someone has ID'd you or he has something more to go on. At this point only statements you make are going to be used against you never for you.

gotcha


i also think this is apropriate (not in relation to your post AK, just so hehehe)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[bibz]

This thread is still going.

[phill_up]

This thread is still going.

I was thinking it was just going to be a marathon, then there was a swim, now we are on bikes. AK47 is in the lead! It wont be long until he is the crowned the winner of the "JCF Triathlon"

Next we enter him in Ultimate triathlon where he will compete with the Ibeenhad, Dean, Fender & Gibby forum champions and he will win! He will bring the Gold Home to the JCF!

God Bless you AK47! Gods speed and may the Forum be with you!