Need suggestions on a Recording PA system for my home studio.

[AK47]

After doing some research I will probably pick up one of these second hand, I found one for 850 I jus need to get it shipped. I found another one in mint condition for 1200.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/1034631948.html

http://www.tvprogear.com/(S(5du1rn55swuqik45zpdwporq))/catalog/productinfo.aspx?id=1174&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

The reviews say I can do Live recording as well as Protools. This would be just what I am looking for. The only upgrade would be a pro studio mixer.

[AK47]

Looks like I may have just scored a Mackie 32x8 and a power supply shipped for under 800 bucks. Will see how this pans out.

The Mackie has built in preamps for the mics correct? So all I need is mics and cables and PA power amp?

[Newc]

Multitracking's the easy part. As long as the drums and rhythm guitar are not horribly sloppy, you can add a bass track easily.

However, the miracle of multitracking is that human flaws shine like the sun, and if you lose the "live feel", you'll definitely spot it when you try to layer more tracks on.


Can't recommend a specific board. There's just too many out there and the "best and worst" change places all the time.


As for mics, you want one for each person who will sing, even backups, with the mic preamp set for their specific function (backups, main, etc) and preferably a peak limiter like the Alesis 3630 set to control spikes.

Not everyone sings at the same volume, and if one person gets a bit louder than another or is off key (i.e. Allman Brothers' Midnight Rider - "I got ONE MORE..."), then you'll wanna fix that in the mix. Can't do it if they're sharing your mic for the chorus.


Miking drums: definitely one for the snare, one for the kick, 2 for the toms (floor and rack if he's just got the standard 3 or 4 tom setup), one for the overhead cymbals (crash and ride) and maybe one for the hi-hat. Some folks get by with just an overhead to catch all the cymbals. Forget about punching in a fix for the drum track, it's more trouble than it's worth. Better to re-cut the whole thing with the drums set right.

One mic per cab is good for live recording. You don't need the front and back "catch every nuance" setup.


The Tape Outs is exactly how those "off the board" bootlegs were made. Usually RCA L/R jacks. Run them out to anything that has a stereo input and you've got a 2-track (stereo) recording that is mixed just like it's coming out of the PA.

[Strangletooth]

Keep in mind, the 2 track out of the board setup will only get you 2 tracks and that's it. There is no separation, no mixing, nothing, you'll have a boot and that's it. Nothing to take to the studio or to your guy etc outside of those 2 tracks. You need to have one track per mic/channel out. I would put a mic pre in there so you can have control over each instrument/drum/mic, etc. BUT.... That board appears to have an out for each channel which is cool, but you'll still need to get it into ProTools somehow.

[Rsmacker]

Miking drums: definitely one for the snare, one for the kick, 2 for the toms (floor and rack if he's just got the standard 3 or 4 tom setup), one for the overhead cymbals (crash and ride) and maybe one for the hi-hat. Some folks get by with just an overhead to catch all the cymbals.

If you are going to use more than mic on Kick, snare and a couple of GOOD overheads, (which is what I'd do personally, you won't really miss any of the kit, so why over-mic just for the hell of it. More work, more expense!) get a quad-gate or 2 with frequency tuning, keeps 'em all nice and tight. Try a Klark Teknik DN514.

The Tape Outs is exactly how those "off the board" bootlegs were made. Usually RCA L/R jacks. Run them out to anything that has a stereo input and you've got a 2-track (stereo) recording that is mixed just like it's coming out of the PA

Stick an ambient mic at mix position into one channel of the board and mix that in with the "clean" mix of each instrument/mic. You'll get a good feel for what it actually sounds like out in front of your cabinets as well as the dry board mix. (Don't put that channel back into the Mix though or you will know about it!)

Buy a DECENT EQ too - Klark Teknik DN360 (oldies but goldies), XTA GQ600 etc. Use for notching out problems, DO NOT do a smiley fucking face just because "that's what you do", it is a remedial tool!

[Endrik]

the better the drummer the less mics you need... a great drummer sounds very balanced and has a superb control over the dynamics and when he hits the drums sound good... often a mic for a kick and a snare and two overheads or just one stereo ribbon can give you the most amazing sound... all the sound comes from the drums, the room and the drummer... the mics just capture it and the air which gives you a really massive sound.
now a lousy drummer can't do that... with minimal amount of mics the recording sounds messy... a lot of mics will be needed and they all need to be close miced and later compressed the hell out of them
the amount of really good drummers is very little, recording is when the capability of the drummer can be judged the best

[AK47]

the better the drummer the less mics you need... a great drummer sounds very balanced and has a superb control over the dynamics and when he hits the drums sound good... often a mic for a kick and a snare and two overheads or just one stereo ribbon can give you the most amazing sound... all the sound comes from the drums, the room and the drummer... the mics just capture it and the air which gives you a really massive sound.
now a lousy drummer can't do that... with minimal amount of mics the recording sounds messy... a lot of mics will be needed and they all need to be close miced and later compressed the hell out of them
the amount of really good drummers is very little, recording is when the capability of the drummer can be judged the best

My drummer is so damn good he makes me sound good.

[Endrik]

good, then you can spend your money more wisely by getting some really good mics instead of a lot of cheap mics. as the time goes by you can always add more mics... with drums there's so many ways to experiment... with snare you can use one mic on top and the other one on bottom and during the mixing you put them out of phase... gives you a nice thick snap... with kick drums you can put one inside, one in front/close miced and one or two a little further...
if you have a great sounding room then you can add many room mics as they give you cool natural ambience and power.
but the problem with using many mics is that they have to be in phase... can be a headache during the mixing.... except as I said before... the snare mics are mostly purposly mixed out of phase compared to each other while one of them is still in phase with the rest of the tracks.
mics are funny... some are so cheap like SM57... perfect for top snare sound but some are ridiculously expensive... german tube con. mics can easily be more expensive than the best boutique guitar amps... and the bad thing is that their cheaper chinese rip-offs just suck.
that being said if you have a good drummer, the right skins and the drums are tuned well... you can get a decent sound even with the most primitive recording set-up

[ShakeManG]

I hate to butt in on this as I quit the retail bizz but, I personaly sold strangletooth at least 75-85% of his gear and have become very good friends since. I came over to his home and not only set most of the gear up with him including way too many guitars for one man to own but, we also sat down and recorded sessions of his jam sessions.
His equipment was perfect for what you are attempting to create in your garrage. The Octopre by Focusrite is killer and exactly what you will need. With that said as a repair service tech AVOID MACKIE at all costs they have too many issues and service is crap (loud technoligies) same thing with sound craft. Although your board is only going to be used for the live p.a. sys (mains and monitors) you want something thats fairly good right? Look at Allen Heath with direct outs so you can get into your PT rig. You will not need alot of channels just enough for your gear 16 or so no more. As far as a p.a. sys all you really need is 1 monitor for drums and that can be a set of head phones for him. Mains (JBL's) (I am a service tech for them as well) 2 way - 3 way speakers and your done!!!! You don't need subs!!!! (unless you want to get in trouble!!!)
And if you want some real PROFESSIONAL help call a friend of mine, I worked with him for 8yrs. (Robert Skahill @ 314-918-7660) he is a top notch guy with alot of knowledge of recording and P.A. systems at (I Hate To Say It Now) Guitar Center. Pick his brain a bit and tell him Shakey told you to call him.......
I hope this helps you out and if you have any questions let me know.

[AK47]

I am looking for a decent size PA because I have decent sized equipment so it has to cut through the sound.

My drum kit is 9 pieces with 8 cymbals infact it was Lars' old drumkit he used during the AMAs in 93

The bass rig has a 8x10 and a 2x15 cab.

My guitar rig has 2 4x12s and the second rig has 2 4x12s.

Having a PA with only 2 15" speakers is not going to cut it. I need enough mics for the drums and cabs. I do not want to be in a situation where I end up mixing and matching stands and mics I prefer to get everything at once. I also dont want to have 2 15" speakers that are one brand then I have to go buy more of another brand because brand A was discontinued and was not loud enough.

The reason I wanted the Mackie was 32 channels leaves me with more than enough and I never have to upgrade plus for the price I could not find better. I dont know much about mixing boards so I will look into something else if the Mackies do not cut it.

[Strangletooth]

I would highly advise you to consult someone in the business. Robert is the BOMB! He won't try to sell you anything, just a great piece of knowledge, he is the man.

I think you're putting way too much thought into all of this to be honest.

Mix and match speakers? :think:

Anyway, best of luck with whatever you decide to do. Oh and these drum mics I've got came from Shakey a while back and they're perfect. But as I said, i'm not going to give them away, they make better paperweights.

[Rsmacker]

they have too many issues and service is crap (loud technoligies) same thing with sound craft. Although your board is only going to be used for the live p.a. sys (mains and monitors) you want something thats fairly good right? Look at Allen Heath with direct outs so you can get into your PT rig. You will not need alot of channels just enough for your gear 16 or so no more. As far as a p.a. sys all you really need is 1 monitor for drums and that can be a set of head phones for him. Mains (JBL's) (I am a service tech for them as well) 2 way - 3 way speakers and your done!!!! You don't need subs!!!! (unless you want to get in trouble!!!)

Whaaaaaaaaat? Allen & Grief over Soundcraft????? Maybe the service is poor over there, but I'd pick a proper Soundcraft board over an A&H every time.
Actually, thinking about it, Soundcraft's service isn't brilliant over here, and I have used an A&H regularly for 13 years with NO issues, so I really shouldn't put them down. It's just what you are used to I suppose, sometimes I end up pushing sliders up on the wrong channel because my Soundcraft is laid out slightly differently to the A&H. At least AK47 won't have that to contend with, if he hasn't spent years using one type of board.

If you have the bread, have a look at the Yamaha LS9-32. Super-sexy, they are really giving me a boner at the moment.

If you buy a decent PA, don't worry about size of the cabinets. Listen to the D&B Audiotechnik stuff, you won't believe how much comes out of boxes that size. Don't skimp on amplifier quality either, definitely false economy, you definitely hear the difference between cheap shit and proper kit.

Best advice I'd give you is to take your time, don't spunk your cash in haste now and regret it later. Listen to some people in the know - like Shakey's mate- but get a few opinions. Some people will recommend kit just because they know it, even though it might not be the best for the job right now (like me going on about Soundcraft above!)

Maybe buy used kit, when people for whatever reason sell-up, full systems are worth fuck all (though buying Pro gear in the first place will hold value better) Best way to piss your money away is to buy shite kit - Peavey, Behringer etc. Pro kit is lots more money, but will always be sought after if and when you decide to sell/upgrade/expand.

[Inazone]

Chiming in a little late, but have you looked at the M-Audio NRV-10 mixer? I watched a pretty in-depth video review of it, and it looks equally well suited to live mixing and recording use.

[ShakeManG]

The Yahmaha LS9 is great we have 3 of them here in the shop. They are alway getting sent out on shows and rentals.
Great desk but cost some major $$$.
Another great desk is Midas again killer analog desk and major $$$.
Brother just go to the music store in your area and pick some brains and you will have it all figured out sooner than you think. You realy don't need alot of gear to get the job done. Just remember that you are in a garage and not a night club you do not need to emit the sound levels so they can be heard 2 houses down. In most rehearsal spaces less is more depending on the size of the room. You don't want a full concert system in a rehearsal space. But, then again if you have the money and you don't mind spending it on alot of gear thats overkill then go for it bro!!! Crank it up and enjoy the noise complaints and fines from the police calls.
All I can say is that I personaly wish you all the best in your endevors and once you get it all worked out I hope you are totaly satisfied in you purchases and you accomplish the goals that you set out to do.
Rock Out & Use Earplugs

[AK47]

Chiming in a little late, but have you looked at the M-Audio NRV-10 mixer? I watched a pretty in-depth video review of it, and it looks equally well suited to live mixing and recording use.

I will look into it. Thanks for the suggestion no suggestions will be too late for this thread, I will take my time on this.

The Yahmaha LS9 is great we have 3 of them here in the shop. They are alway getting sent out on shows and rentals.
Great desk but cost some major $$$.
Another great desk is Midas again killer analog desk and major $$$.
Brother just go to the music store in your area and pick some brains and you will have it all figured out sooner than you think. You realy don't need alot of gear to get the job done. Just remember that you are in a garage and not a night club you do not need to emit the sound levels so they can be heard 2 houses down. In most rehearsal spaces less is more depending on the size of the room. You don't want a full concert system in a rehearsal space. But, then again if you have the money and you don't mind spending it on alot of gear thats overkill then go for it bro!!! Crank it up and enjoy the noise complaints and fines from the police calls.
All I can say is that I personaly wish you all the best in your endevors and once you get it all worked out I hope you are totaly satisfied in you purchases and you accomplish the goals that you set out to do.
Rock Out & Use Earplugs

I had my entire garage insulated and sheet rocked last summer including the ceiling for the purpose of turning it into a rehersal studio/space. With cheap sound proofing it is very quiet outside with the cabs cranked, I will upgrade to pro quality sound proofing stuff later in the year.


There seams to be great deals on real nice stuff on craigslist so I want to look into everything.

As with going to music stores my problem has been people trying to push what they sell on me and I am not getting a real feel of what is truely great for what I want to do since I will be buying used anyways. If I listened to what the music store always tried to sell me I would be playing Crate amps and Epiphone guitars right now.

I have a friend who works at a studio and know his stuff but the stuff he was recommending that works will set me back in the 5 figures...

I mean there all kinds of 32 channel mixers going for under a 1000 dollars right now. There are JBL speakers with 4 15s, horns, tweaters I mean everything going for under 800 dollars used.

My bass rig for example I had to go with a 8x10 cab because it was hard to hear over the drums with anything less. I dont want to run into the same problem with my PA speakers.

Pretty much:

Mixing board- still open to suggestions am looking into a Yamaha LS9 found one in mint condition for 1800 with box and everything. If they are that good I may just do it. I see they sell for 5k new.

I now know what type of mics I need since I researched those and will be getting:
Audio Technica microphones: AT4050 for guitars, AT4054 for vocals
Audio-Technica 2500 for drums.

PA speakers and power amp. It seams like the JBL or CV stuff is the way to go with this.

Will use a PC with PT to record may look into a DAT as well.