Windows Vista sucks monkey nuts!

[hippietim]

Fair enough. So, I am of the opinion that the WCE codebase is waaaay out of control. In the WCE world, you have what is called an "AK", or "Adaptation Kit". This is basically operating system code, platform reference code, binaries, compilers, tools, etc. Now keep in mind a WCE kernel might only be 128 MB or so in size. Q: How big of an AK is required to build a 128 MB kernel? A: North of 2 GB!! That thing was a total monster. The build process is largely undocumented, and the complexity of it was absurd. The funny thing is, that 2 GB AK only included a small percentage of the core OS code...it wasn't even complete!

I wouldn't disagree about the WCE build process or what you have to do to deal with the AK. This of course has nothing to do with unwieldy code or issues with race conditions. I'm still trying to understand what problems you encountered with the code. Also, a 2GB AK is irrelevant - it's just disk space during image building - it's not like WCE has that sort of footprint.

[hippietim]

The AK's also didn't play well with Microsoft's own version control systems like SourceSafe. If you tried to check it in, the read only file attributes would tear that thing to shreds. It didn't handle it gracefully, either...you would just get subtle errors in your kernels that took a few days to debug

I wouldn't disagree with you regarding SourceSafe. I can't imagine why you were using it when there have always been so many great alternatives.

[Axewielder]

Microsoft also made a mess of the QFE's (quick fix engineering) on the AK's. These are basically patches. We had a very structured build process where version numbers actually meant something. Microsoft pushes these out to their partners on Jetstream, which is a glorified FTP server. Well, one of our directors, who is very observant, noticed that the datetimes on the QFE's were changing as well as the binary contents, but not the version numbers. Microsoft was rebuilding and reposting critical software components under the exact same version numbers, and not telling anybody, and were doing it more than once. Shame!

[Axewielder]

I found a number of race conditions in the core communications code. When ActiveSync used to run over serial (a bastardized PPP implementation), things were a real mess. The device would send out the "CLIENT" command, and instead of waiting 3 seconds for a timeout, would shoot out "CLIENT" immediately 2 or 3 times right in a row. You could grab any old iPaq, hook it up to HyperTerminal, and watch the comms start to croak (this is with nothing even talking to it!). It turns out the low level unimodem driver had a background thread which was inadvertantly triggering multiple timeout events because of poor multithreaded programming. The worst part was, because it was in core OS code, we were contractually prevented from fixing it. So, we had to ship software with a known defect that was easily fixable. Thanks again.

[wilkinsi]

Apart from looking like it's trying to emulate a Mac, I don't see what's so special about Vista. I'm happy with XP Pro.

[Spivonious]

Apart from looking like it's trying to emulate a Mac, I don't see what's so special about Vista. I'm happy with XP Pro.

Lots of things were rewritten under the hood. New security system, new video system, new sound system, new I/O system, etc. It's too bad that most people just look at the UI for the changes.

Axewielder: Wow I haven't heard anything about PPP in over 10 years! Brought back some memories of configuring Win 3.11 for our 1200 baud internet connection.

[rjohnstone]

Apart from looking like it's trying to emulate a Mac, I don't see what's so special about Vista. I'm happy with XP Pro.

Wow... just wow.

Does your head hurt when you have to think for yourself?

[Strangletooth]

I like the way my Mac's look! (and work(all the time))

[wilkinsi]

Wow... just wow.

Does your head hurt when you have to think for yourself?

No it doesn't. Go on, what's so good about it?

[rjohnstone]

No it doesn't. Go on, what's so good about it?

Just about everything.
More stable than XP, definitely more secure, easier to maintain (although the reconfigured Control Panel takes some getting used to) and it just flat out works.
I've not had a single BSOD with Vista. Had more than I care to count with XP.

The only time Vista ever crapped out was due to me trying to make it run shit that wasn't designed to run under Vista. That was MY fault, not Vista's.

Also, the layout of Windows Explorer is cleaner and more organized than it is under XP.

Integration with Office 2007 is fantastic.

As for look and feel, one of the primary icon designers for Vista used to be an icon designer for Apple.
The transparency effects in Vista were around long before (Longhorn betas) they showed up in any Mac OS.
So to say one looks like the other is sort of true... they both copy from each other when it comes to UI design..

[Trem]

Shit I disagree, Vista crashes a lot on my friends pc, and it was built with vista and with all vista compitable hardware.
The worst piece of crap ever, it sucks ass.
I'd rather use windows 98.
i can't think of anything good to say about it, cept DX 10 i guess...
Xp just works.
I never have a problem with it, it never crashes, the crashes i have had are due usually to video card drivers when playing video games ect.
That's it.
While it's not perfect, it will be all i ever use if i am forced to go Vista or the new OS which looks and acts just like Vista, i'll switch to MAC.
Never will i install that hideous piece of crap on my machine.

[rjohnstone]

Shit I disagree, Vista crashes a lot on my friends pc, and it was built with vista and with all vista compitable hardware.

There's a ton of "Vista Compatible" hardware out there.
And each one has a driver that was not written by Microsoft.
Again, how is a hardware failure (most commonly caused by poorly written 3rd party drivers) Vista's fault?

Probably running Vista Home Basic too I bet.
Here's where I'll agree. That POS should have never been released.
It's so stripped down that most of the "Vista Certified" drivers for graphics cards don't even work.
That's mainly because the rendering engine is neutered beyond belief in Home Basic.

[Axewielder]

Again, how is a hardware failure (most commonly caused by poorly written 3rd party drivers) Vista's fault?

Me me me me me me!




OK as a third party Windows driver guy, let me break this shit down for you. Microsoft constantly screws over the guys who are writing drivers. They create these layers (somtimes called MDD's) that the driver guys have to write their drivers against. The trouble is, these MDD's get very convoluted over time, to the point where they are no longer comprehensible. No real documentation exists for them. Sure, documentation exists, but it is so full of errors and stubbed explanations that it is worthless. So, the real documentation is this "reference code" that Microsoft provides, which somehow seems to work. It's hard to tell what most of it does, so driver guys mostly copy and paste and color between the lines, and when you have to go outside the lines...god help you. Now add on major OS overhauls, and baffling changes to the MDD's which appear without warning, and that's how you get where we are at today.

[Axewielder]

Also...unlike writing drivers for Linux, when you are writing drivers for Windoze, you spend countless hours having to debug issues in the OS for which you don't have the source code. Fun.

[rjohnstone]

OK as a third party Windows driver guy, let me break this shit down for you. Microsoft constantly screws over the guys who are writing drivers. They create these layers (somtimes called MDD's) that the driver guys have to write their drivers against. The trouble is, these MDD's get very convoluted over time, to the point where they are no longer comprehensible. No real documentation exists for them. Sure, documentation exists, but it is so full of errors and stubbed explanations that it is worthless. So, the real documentation is this "reference code" that Microsoft provides, which somehow seems to work. It's hard to tell what most of it does, so driver guys mostly copy and paste and color between the lines, and when you have to go outside the lines...god help you. Now add on major OS overhauls, and baffling changes to the MDD's which appear without warning, and that's how you get where we are at today.

Interesting point, but I find your statement more an excuse for writing sloppy/bad code.

There are plenty of drivers out there that work just fine with Vista.

This tells me there are plenty of programmers out there that can fully comprehend what is given to them and produce solid code.

I quit writing code back around the time Windows 95 was released, so I have no idea what Microsoft has been doing with the code base since then.
I mainly wrote financial programs for filling out title forms for title agencies.