Keep buying crap made in China suckers

[khabibissell]

My dad got the news yesterday that his salary (about $250/week more than my 12-hour check) will be cut by 5%, the company is no longer contributing to the 401K, and they lost 1 week of vacation, but still have to work 12 hour days.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The company is forcing its workers to work the same amount of hours for LESS pay and benefits. I could understand it if the company was scaling back hours and benefits do to decreased demand for its products (which would mean they would be making less profit), but it doesn't sound like that's the case. What's going on here is that the company is trying to pad its bottom line at the expense of its workforce. Nice huh? That is the type of injustice that a union would fight.

Now, before I get jumped on yet again in this thread, I agree that the unions of today need an overhaul. I also agree that a "non-skilled" laborer working on the line at GM for example doesn't need to make $120K/year, but is having an entity that fights for workers rights such a bad thing?

[FlyingSkull]

Good job everyone, for 8 pages veering from religion, philosophy, heath care, unions, China etc.. we have been remarkable civil to one another!

Endrik, I was going to write up a big response to your history lesson post (good job) but I will just say that it sounds like we read the same sort of nerdy books. Haha

[AK47]

Dude, that's a fascist system not a Social Healthcare

Do you think we are dealing with a bunch of boyscouts? Check out what was said:

Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).- End quote.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. First Elderly then those deamed undesirable.

[AK47]

You think they'll do worse than the private sector? Really? Not a chance. The private sector is incredibly cavalier with your medical records.

And the private sector is doing a FUCKING HORRIBLE JOB providing health services these days.

I seldom go to the doctor but with a wife and two kids we end up spending time at the doctor's office periodically. Also, let me say that I have very good health insurance.

Going to the doctor's office is pure misery. They treat you like an inconvenience, they don't listen to a fucking thing you say, they push random new treatments on you, they want to prescribe you medicine that you are alergic to (after not reading the mountain of paperwork you filled out and after you explicitly tell them what you are alergic to 10 minutes prior), etc.

This is NOTHING like it was when I was growing up. Not even close.

A close friend of mine is a very respected PT (and a Republican so you Limbaughs can settle down) and he is appalled by the way the private sector has turned health care into a pure business with no real regard to patient care.

I have yet to meet a doctor, nurse, etc. in recent years that was any good that thought the system was working. The only ones that seem to think the system is good are the doctors that suck.

It's very easy to say that the government is not the solution but leaving health care entirely up to the private sector is completely flawed - it doesn't work worth a shit.

You seriously think it will get better with the .gov in charge?

The current way records are there is no centralized system which is a good thing. Lets say you want to pay cash for that herpes treatment to keep it "off the books" so to speak you can.

Dont take this as an insult Tim but for a self proclaimed hippie you sure are trusting of the .gov

Yes the system sucks but part of the problem is insurance denials for "pre-existing conditions" that needs to change.

Second is the DEA and heavy regualtion of pharma drugs. This adds tremendous cost to perscriptions.

Then we have the lunacy of the FDA like the outlawing of inhalers because of enviromental concerns so people have to buy them in Mexico now.

To have everything under the umbrella of the .gov is a very bad thing like I said before we arre not dealing with a bunch of boyscouts here.

[Evol]

Going to the doctor's office is pure misery. They treat you like an inconvenience, they don't listen to a fucking thing you say, they push random new treatments on you, they want to prescribe you medicine that you are alergic to (after not reading the mountain of paperwork you filled out and after you explicitly tell them what you are alergic to 10 minutes prior), etc.

This is NOTHING like it was when I was growing up. Not even close.

I have noticed the exact same thing, at first I thought maybe it was cultural/local differences but as I moved from city to city throughout the US in the last decade or so I have seen it get worse and worse. It's gotten to a point that unless something is majorly wrong I won't even think about stepping foot in a doctor's office, I loathe it that much. Which seems silly since I have really good insurance I should be able to use it when I need to.

Maybe I'm just out of touch or remembering wrong, but when I was a kid going to the doctor wasn't ever that bad, they were always nice, there was way less hassle, and they took their time to diagnose and treat me and it seemed to me like they retained that info, now I have to constantly remind my doctor what I was there for last and why he's seeing me now, what I can and can't take, etc.

It all feels very sloppy to me.

[Shawn Lutz]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The company is forcing its workers to work the same amount of hours for LESS pay and benefits. I could understand it if the company was scaling back hours and benefits do to decreased demand for its products (which would mean they would be making less profit), but it doesn't sound like that's the case. What's going on here is that the company is trying to pad its bottom line at the expense of its workforce. Nice huh? That is the type of injustice that a union would fight.

Now, before I get jumped on yet again in this thread, I agree that the unions of today need an overhaul. I also agree that a "non-skilled" laborer working on the line at GM for example doesn't need to make $120K/year, but is having an entity that fights for workers rights such a bad thing?

I see where you coming from but if you had a choice of take a 5% pay cut, no 401k contributions / change in medical plans over unemployment what would you take? I'm sure there are people getting screwed in some shape or form but companies are doing this kind of stuff to keep from having to layoff folks.

[hippietim]

You seriously think it will get better with the .gov in charge?

As opposed to what we have today? That's a hell of a choice.

Dont take this as an insult Tim but for a self proclaimed hippie you sure are trusting of the .gov

Who said I trust the government? However, by definition they are supposed to be on my side. Whereas corporations are on their side.

Obviously our government is not operating optimally toward their goal. The funny thing is that the corporations actually are operting much more optimally toward their goals. However, with the exception of my employer, corporate goals are NOT in my best interest.

So I'm saying that I trust corporations less than the government.

Yes the system sucks but part of the problem is insurance denials for "pre-existing conditions" that needs to change.

That absolutely will not happen without government.

Second is the DEA and heavy regualtion of pharma drugs. This adds tremendous cost to perscriptions.

I hear you. Then again people flip out when the government didn't properly protect us from some erection drug.

Then we have the lunacy of the FDA like the outlawing of inhalers because of enviromental concerns so people have to buy them in Mexico now.

I wasn't aware of that. Yikes!

To have everything under the umbrella of the .gov is a very bad thing like I said before we arre not dealing with a bunch of boyscouts here.

Well we are living the alternative and it sure isn't working. And these mother fuckers running the industry sure as hell ain't boyscouts either.

Now what?

[bombtek]

huh....I'm at a catch 22 then according to Tim. I work for the government LOL.

[clifffclaven]

I see where you coming from but if you had a choice of take a 5% pay cut, no 401k contributions / change in medical plans over unemployment what would you take? I'm sure there are people getting screwed in some shape or form but companies are doing this kind of stuff to keep from having to layoff folks.

And sometimes just to keep their investors happy.

[horns666]

The doctors don't call the shots anymore. The insurance and drug COMPANIES..as in buisness do.

I see my doctors constantly for my conditions. They are very upfront with me. They tell me they can't prescribe a medication that I KNOW works for me unless they prescribe something that is dictated to them first. They usualy say something like "Call me in a couple days..I'll document that medication was ineffective and precsribe the right medication for you". I've heard this from MANY doctors. This way the doctor covers his ass, or they can be flagged for prescribing certain meds without trying the suggested alternative first.

Recently my sone had to get a physical for CYO basketball. The doctor said "I'm not supoosed to tell you this but sports exams are not covered, but an annual complete physical is" ..So instead of paying the full out of pocket $125 for a sports exam, I only had to pay my $30 co-pay. It's the fuggin' Insurance companies man. The family doctors are working with patients because they're losing money/patients because it's too expensive to see them.

It helps to be established with your doctor of course. That goes a long way.

[marcus]

Ummm, yes every saturday!

However my question was not to turn this into a religious thread, my question was about why we feel the need to depend on government for everything!

Then why did you ask about the possibility of morality absent spirituality? What does that have to do with government? :think:

No I would rather have all of the choices and options available, with a competent doctor of my choice to help with the decision making process!

You will never get this under the current corporation based healthcare system here. Decisions are made by the insurance company, don't be foolish

Quite frankly they are not allowed to under all of the governmental advisory boards and their civilian counterparts.

Well, if they aren't effective, they shouldn't be. But my point wasn't really about alternative medicine at all, I am skeptical of a lot of its claims anyway.

[marcus]

Just substitute the following for "Doctors" above:

(teachers, congressmen, senators, police, fire, welfare, beaureaucrats, or any government funded program)

and this right after "order tests" and before "that are expensive"

(or programs, or laws, or any other mandatory requirement that bastardizes the free-market)

and you'll have.....

a great post that could describe what is wrong with the government getting involved. All you have to do to increase the cost of, reduce the quality of, and eventually destroy any good or service is to let the governemnt get involved in it. The government ruins everything it touches in the private sector and destroys the 90 percent that can handle themselves in order to "save" the 10% that can't/won't. Brilliant strategy.

The Baby Boom Generation (as a group) has been a disaster for the U.S. and the sooner they die off the better off we all will be. Unfortunately, they'll have indoctrinated the last 2 generations into their "what about me" sociopathic "victimization" mantra so without a cataclysmic event I don't think things will change. We'll just get more "French" by the year.
But what do you expect...from a generation of acid dropping dumbasses who absolutely refuse to ever take responsibility for thier own actions? A group of people who never matured past age 13.

For anyone out there receiving taxpayer paid services...when you are fully capable of doing for yourself (but won't).. F**k You. You're stealing from my kid. Drop Dead. Preferably sooner rather than later. Get off your ass, turn off the TV, and go get a job. Not speaking to anyone in particular but if the shoe fits (as they used to say)............wear it.

This last election was a victory by those who "will not" do for themselves over those who "have and will". We should strive for equality of Opportunity (a noble, but difficult thing) rather than mandating Equality of Outcome (an easy thing) which is something gov't has the power to do way too well. The only reward now for hard work and intelligence is to have the responsibilty of doing the work of those too lazy to do it for themselves (why should they? the gov't will fix it) in addition to your own. We need to get back to "you don't work, you don't eat" and most of sociteys problems would fix themselves within a decade (painfully). But the pain is coming either way. Oh, and we'll help immigrants if they'll get legal the legal way. Not amnesty (a reward for breaking the law)

Done ranting. Oh, and Chinese LPs suck wad. LOL.

Well, socialized health care has been shown to work quite well. There are many very different examples of it working around the world. Almost all have higher quality health care (perhaps a subjective standard here) and cost less per capita (not really subjective here though). Our system on the other hand is expensive and a total pain in the ass to use. And it doesn't focus on quality of outcome, it focuses on maximizing corporate profit. As a customer, when I need health care it is a drag on profits, and we can't have that. They act as if I'm a huge inconvenience whenever I try to get medical care. I have pretty good health insurance too, by the way.

Honestly, you non-socialized medicine types are doing a terrible job of convincing me that I should continue to accept expensive, poor quality, rationed health care instead of a single payer/socialized alternative

[Endrik]

Honestly, you non-socialized medicine types are doing a terrible job of convincing me that I should continue to accept expensive, poor quality, rationed health care instead of a single payer/socialized alternative

hey didn't you know that everyone who needs medical attention/health care are unemployed bastards or illegal immigrants... hard working, average wage earning Joe The Plumbers will never get sick and even if they do they wont have any problem paying for 120000 dollar costing operations

[Jayster]

hey didn't you know that everyone who needs medical attention/health care are unemployed bastards or illegal immigrants... hard working, average wage earning Joe The Plumbers will never get sick and even if they do they wont have any problem paying for 120000 dollar costing operations

Endrik I'm not picking on you or singling you out, I've just caught up on several pages of this thread and this seems to be a prevailing thought.

I do happen to work for a living and I also happen to be a legal citizen(which is currently a punitive condition for me). I've stated that I've personally been sick lately, I spent over a month in the hospital(2 occasions) had 1 surgery and while my insurance did cover an extensive amount - I'd be lying to say it did not present me with some hardships as each of the 16 different billing departments all got approximately 80% from my insurance, now I do feel that I received quality care(for the most part) however there were several instances of complete ignorance that would not fly in the business world.

However - If I appear scared of socialized healthcare thats because I am!

Someone said that a certain amount of money should be collected from the citizens for the specific reason of the healthcare(sounds pretty good right?). WRONGO ~ We've tried this principal in this country before it was called social security(in case anyone is unfamiliar; this was designed to help all American citizens with retirement(for your entire working life a portion of your earnings are deducted from your income to provide this benifit)at a specified age you are able to collect a monthly portion of your deposits into this system). Sounds great right? WRONGO ~ someone in congress decided we should not have this money sitting in a safe manner for the intended purpose and the rest of congress agreed! Now even though I've paid in my whole life, I'll not see a dime!
Also this money is funding benifits for non-citizens as well(America has the worst illegal immigration problem in the world(I'm pretty sure)).

You think .gov would keep my information safer? Our pentagon and whitehouse have been hacked, the world bank has been hacked - any computer based system even an intranet is susceptible of information theft(and just what is the conficker thingy?)

[horns666]

You guys should just slap pud sabers like a fuggin' Star Wars..

Here, take lessons from this kid.. he's good! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU