Keep buying crap made in China suckers

[85 San Dimas]

Did you see that doc on Walmart? The really are ass wipes,they call the shots and if you can not make it cheap enough fuck you. Made in the U.S.A us to mean something!

I'm new to the thread and absolutely won't shop at Wal-Mart (or GC, the OTHER Wal-Mart).

I will say thought that i read an article back in the 80's that Toyota treated thier suppliers the same way.

[Endrik]

And if all of you guys seem to believe we can have morality without spirituality, then why can we not have society without government?:think:

I don't get the point:think:
Morality, spirituality and government are products of society. Morality was created first, then came spirituality which was used as a manipulation device but used elements of morality so it would seem a ok for the sheep, then came government which was based on elements of morality so that the society would work better and it also had elements of manipulation so someone in power would benefit from it more than the others.

[Jayster]

I don't get the point:think:
Morality was created first, then came spirituality which was used as a

Without spirituality to tell you whats wrong how can you have morality?
If it was purely based upon individual thought there would be a lack of morality, perhaps some social norms or mores but not morality.

government are products of society.

I would disagree, in the days of cavemen didn't the biggest/strongest rule(dictatorship). Who would object to dragging your squaw around by their hair?

then came spirituality which was used as a manipulation device but used elements of morality so it would seem a ok for the sheep,

I agree there have been massive abuses of power and corruption within all organized religions. The manipulation device would be guilt because the accepted norms of society are not in line with true morality!

, then came government which was based on elements of morality so that the society would work better and it also had elements of manipulation so someone in power would benefit from it more than the others.

Government based on morality??? I must have missed this one! Elements of manipulation absolutely help someone in power to benefit above those under them. However the very act of being manipulative is immoral.

Wow if our conflicting views didn't just form a circular logic example I don't know what would!

Anyway cheers, let's get back to OPIE's thread ...

[Ben...]

well said Ben but I think Ward meant the whole "social package" like in Scandinavia where health care is just a small part... but I may be wrong
Social health care alone is in even in the most conservative EU countries where the taxes are low, if you take it away, the government buildings will be burnt down the same day.... it's the most precious thing for the people. It's more important than military because you need health every day. I wouldn't imagine my life without social healthcare... I've been pretty sick all my life and have had many very expensive operations... If my family would have had to pay for all that then we'd be living on the streets right now.
I've said it before, health is one of the few things where capitalism should stay the fuck out. It's totally against Hippocrates. If you want big business then start stuffing implants inside of tits.

Yeah, I just wanted to comment on that aspect of social welfare because I think it's the most important. I could go into the education aspect but I don't really want to.

[MetalHeadMat]

I agree, I'd buy an American made guitar... If it wasn't so fucking expensive *Hint Hint Jackson*

Chinese manufacturers flooded the U.S. market with more than 500 million pounds of dry wall about the time Katrina was flooding New Orleans.

Case closed, we know who did it.

[Newc]

Bear in mind I'm not saying we need an Obama Order to limit executive salary, I'm saying that execs need to take it upon themselves to protect American jobs and take a pay cut they can afford rather than cut the salaries of those who cannot afford it.

With the recent scaling-back of my work schedule from 12-hour days to 10-hour days, I make about $200 per paycheck less than what I did at 12 hours, and I grossed $36K last year. Since I get paid bi-monthly, and if this continues throughout 2009, I'll gross about $31K this year.

My dad got the news yesterday that his salary (about $250/week more than my 12-hour check) will be cut by 5%, the company is no longer contributing to the 401K, and they lost 1 week of vacation, but still have to work 12 hour days.

I can survive (i.e. daily required meal to stay alive and shelter suitable to protect me from the elements and wild animal attacks) on $30K a year. Granted it means no music gear or other luxuries, but at least I can afford slightly better than ghetto rent (which, being White, I would not qualify for). Imagine if I was the sole provider for a wife and 2 children? $36K would barely support a family of 4, so $30K is nowhere near close.

Take an executive pulling in $500K a year and instead of reducing MY salary $5000, reduce his by $5000. Reduce it by $100,000. What standard of living will that exec be able to afford? A damn nice one. While certain luxuries might have to be scaled back (i.e. no new BMW this year like he did last year, might have to let go of that weekend retreat in the Hamptons), what burden is placed on him?


Now, the issue with Union pay - you're factoring in things that do not go into the paycheck every week like benefits and pension, so yeah, you're combining all that to come up with this "$75 and hour". That's why it seems so high to you, because you're comparing a package to your own paycheck, which does not have the package factored in.

Who was it that said he didn't see the sense in getting a higher education if the Union guy is making only $10 less an hour than he was? Where is there a problem with making a liveable wage? Whose job matters more to society, yours or that of the garbageman? Yay you went to school to learn to do what you do. Negotiate for a higher salary for yourself rather than wish ill will on someone else that can't afford the step-down.

[Jayster]

For the health care aspect, people who have incredibly sick or injured don't get turned down because some slimy insurance company found a "discrepancy" in their application. People's health comes before money. I've heard many arguments that people don't want to pay for others' treatment but I say what if it was a relative of yours or a close friend that didn't have insurance? What would you rather see: 1) Them get treated at the bill of the government and it costs little or nothing for them. OR 2) Watch them pay thousands of dollars for medical service at an inflated cost or not get treated at all because they couldn't afford insurance.

Ben thankyou for your response, I would still like to hear GoR's reasoning though.

I've always worked and carried insurance, never have I had a problem with it(2 children being born,wife was hospitalized for thyroid irregularity that lead to heart problems, and I myself was recently hospitalized twice). My main concern with socialized healthcare is that I believe it limits the available treatments that you can receive. My Mom died from cancer less then 2 years ago, we naively followed the directions of her doctors - traditional American doctors. She started by having a radical mastectomy, followed by chemo and radiation. This did not work and the cancer spread to her bones. At this point we had learned of some "alternative" treatments that are not allowed to be practiced in the US, by now she was in constant pain and unable to do many basic tasks(I would spend 3 nights a week with her, then my sister would spend the other nights that she could with her(big kudos to my wife for being understanding and supportive during these hard times)). Well, we all decided that Mom should try this one "alternative" treatment and she went to Mexico to the Oasis of Hope. She had spent 2 weeks there IIRC, when she returned she was not using any painkillers able to do almost everything on her own and in such an improved condition that I could hardly believe it!

After continuing to see her traditional American doctor(while still engaging in the "alternative" treatment, he told us that her liver enzymes were elevated and she needed to stop all of the "alternative" medicines she had gotten as we didn't really know what they were(not FDA approved). So she stopped all of what was keeping her alive, after stopping the treatments she rapidly succumbed to the cancer.

The point I'm trying to make here is this;

The "alternative treatment" was 100% natural(through dietary changes and supplements of concentrated natural things) for example there were daily injections into the fatty tissue of apricot seed concentrate (IIRC). The sucess rate this treatment claims is over 90% if convenntional medicines are not used first. As conventional medicine for cancer comes close to killing you on it's own and undisputably causes quality of life issues and if it "works" severly shortens the lifespan of the recipient. I will always wonder what if we had done one of the alternatives quicker(however the "alternative" treatments are not covered by insurance at least here in the US. This reason is simple greed - it is much more profitable to create someone who needs ongoing repeated treatments than to actually cure something.

So if socialized medicine comes with governmental regulations, I don't think I want that for me or my family.

[marcus]

So if socialized medicine comes with governmental regulations, I don't think I want that for me or my family.

You would rather have corporations determining what health care you can receive, even though you just spent several paragraphs railing against them? In our current system, there is no incentive for doctors to prescribe alternative treatments to cancer. Cancer treatments get some of the highest payouts possible from insurance companies, that is why the oncology wards at American hospitals are so nicely appointed, cancer makes all the money.

Doctors are not paid based upon outcomes in our system, they are paid by what services they dole out. Needless to say this gives them a perverse incentive to prescribe treatments or order tests that are expensive, regardless of the affect said treatments and/or tests have on the health of the patient. See all the recent hubbub over prostate cancer testing as an example of this.

[marcus]

Without spirituality to tell you whats wrong how can you have morality?
If it was purely based upon individual thought there would be a lack of morality, perhaps some social norms or mores but not morality.

Recent science has shown morality to be a biological construct. An evolutionary adaptation really. Studies have shown that people with certain kinds of head injuries make much different moral calculations than others. For instance, what would you do if you were hiding from gunmen in your cellar, and you had a crying baby with you. If you don't shut the baby up, the gunmen will discover you and your family and kill you all. Do you suffocate the baby, probably killing it to save your family? Religion is not really much help in this situation, either way you are causing some people to get killed. People with damage to a certain part of their brain have been shown to be much more likely to kill the baby, whereas "normal" people overwhelmingly choose not to.

Also, what would happen to your morality, requiring spirituality, if you found out that your religion was full of shit? Morality is gone? No universal moral code anymore, so anything goes? This isn't what I would call morality, it sounds more like how teenagers deal with rules at school. They only follow them when they know somebody is watching

Not to mention that our earthly religious texts are some of the most amoral works I have ever read. Have you ever taken a look at the old testament?

[Jayster]

Have you ever taken a look at the old testament?

Ummm, yes every saturday!

However my question was not to turn this into a religious thread, my question was about why we feel the need to depend on government for everything!

You would rather have corporations determining what health care you can receive, even though you just spent several paragraphs railing against them?

No I would rather have all of the choices and options available, with a competent doctor of my choice to help with the decision making process!

In our current system, there is no incentive for doctors to prescribe alternative treatments to cancer.

Quite frankly they are not allowed to under all of the governmental advisory boards and their civilian counterparts.

[85 San Dimas]

Doctors are not paid based upon outcomes in our system, they are paid by what services they dole out. Needless to say this gives them a perverse incentive to prescribe treatments or order tests that are expensive, regardless of the affect said treatments and/or tests have on the health of the patient.

Just substitute the following for "Doctors" above:

(teachers, congressmen, senators, police, fire, welfare, beaureaucrats, or any government funded program)

and this right after "order tests" and before "that are expensive"

(or programs, or laws, or any other mandatory requirement that bastardizes the free-market)

and you'll have.....

a great post that could describe what is wrong with the government getting involved. All you have to do to increase the cost of, reduce the quality of, and eventually destroy any good or service is to let the governemnt get involved in it. The government ruins everything it touches in the private sector and destroys the 90 percent that can handle themselves in order to "save" the 10% that can't/won't. Brilliant strategy.

The Baby Boom Generation (as a group) has been a disaster for the U.S. and the sooner they die off the better off we all will be. Unfortunately, they'll have indoctrinated the last 2 generations into their "what about me" sociopathic "victimization" mantra so without a cataclysmic event I don't think things will change. We'll just get more "French" by the year.
But what do you expect...from a generation of acid dropping dumbasses who absolutely refuse to ever take responsibility for thier own actions? A group of people who never matured past age 13.

For anyone out there receiving taxpayer paid services...when you are fully capable of doing for yourself (but won't).. F**k You. You're stealing from my kid. Drop Dead. Preferably sooner rather than later. Get off your ass, turn off the TV, and go get a job. Not speaking to anyone in particular but if the shoe fits (as they used to say)............wear it.

This last election was a victory by those who "will not" do for themselves over those who "have and will". We should strive for equality of Opportunity (a noble, but difficult thing) rather than mandating Equality of Outcome (an easy thing) which is something gov't has the power to do way too well. The only reward now for hard work and intelligence is to have the responsibilty of doing the work of those too lazy to do it for themselves (why should they? the gov't will fix it) in addition to your own. We need to get back to "you don't work, you don't eat" and most of sociteys problems would fix themselves within a decade (painfully). But the pain is coming either way. Oh, and we'll help immigrants if they'll get legal the legal way. Not amnesty (a reward for breaking the law)

Done ranting. Oh, and Chinese LPs suck wad. LOL.

[Endrik]

Without spirituality to tell you whats wrong how can you have morality?
If it was purely based upon individual thought there would be a lack of morality, perhaps some social norms or mores but not morality.

Spirituality doesn't need to tell me anything. There are laws and laws which were made way before any spirituality existed. Do you think that Morality is a recent discovery? Ancient tribes decided that killing, stealing etc. isn't the way to go and hence the laws were made.
Most people are born with empathy... within society they learn what's right or wrong... not only by real events but by emotional experiences.
We are pretty hard wired to have morality. It's a social survival instinct. Our prime survival instincts are not to get killed and mating... our secondary survival instinct is to survive as a society. Hence why very few actually do whatever the heck they want. At least 90% of the people are a "grey mass" doing jobs which they don't like but it's for the sake for social survival... no one tells them what to do... most people adapt the social order even if they don't know any rules and whatnot.
When spirituality tells you what's right or wrong... that is a social norm if that spirituality is followed by many.
Right or wrong was pretty similar everywhere thousands of years ago in different civilizations with different spiritualities or without spiritualities.
Spirituality is taught to people.
True morality isn't, although we have laws which are based on morality.

I would disagree, in the days of cavemen didn't the biggest/strongest rule(dictatorship). Who would object to dragging your squaw around by their hair?

Just like when lil' Johnny grows up and doesn't use his wee wee only for urinating anymore, the people grew up/evolve too over the time. Cavemen evolved.. they started using their brain more... ancient mesopotamians, greeks and so on, had ideas for different systems so that a big caveman wouldn't do dictatorship on everyone's ass.

Government based on morality??? I must have missed this one! Elements of manipulation absolutely help someone in power to benefit above those under them. However the very act of being manipulative is immoral.

Read the previous. The idea of a government is very old. The idea was born because people wanted a better system than the caveman dictatorship one. The ideas behind government were moral. Getting rid of dictatorship, more equality, everyone's voice is represented, better justice system etc. The immorality of the government came in when governments became reality as there were douchebags with napoleon complex who wanted more and more.

[Endrik]

So if socialized medicine comes with governmental regulations, I don't think I want that for me or my family.

It most definitely should NOT come with governmental control. In countries with highly developed socialized health care you can go to pretty much any doctor and you are covered. And people are trying to get the system working with some alternative medicine too (it takes time to develop as every new age hocus pocus crap which has no effect can't be funded)

[VitaminG]

well said Ben but I think Ward meant the whole "social package" like in Scandinavia where health care is just a small part... but I may be wrong
Social health care alone is in even in the most conservative EU countries where the taxes are low, if you take it away, the government buildings will be burnt down the same day.... it's the most precious thing for the people. It's more important than military because you need health every day. I wouldn't imagine my life without social healthcare... I've been pretty sick all my life and have had many very expensive operations... If my family would have had to pay for all that then we'd be living on the streets right now.
I've said it before, health is one of the few things where capitalism should stay the fuck out. It's totally against Hippocrates. If you want big business then start stuffing implants inside of tits.

I have always been fairly healthy. I eat right, stay relatively active, and apart from the occasional broken bone or accident with something sharp (and recent disagreements with a persistent sinus infection), haven't really required major medical attention in my life.

We have a social health care system over here & I wouldn't have it any other way. A portion of every dollar I earn contributes to it, and as you can see from my last para, I haven't taken a great deal of advantage of it. But whilst the extra money in pocket would be nice (although under another system it, and a bunch more of my money, would have to be paid to an insurance company to cover not only my possible healthcare but also all their administrative costs, advertising budgets, shiny new prospectuses & annual reports, etc) I'm happy to contribute, because if and when I find myself hauled off to hospital in an emergency and require a rash of expensive tests, scans, treatments, etc. it's not going to cost me or the family I might leave behind a red cent. I hate to think that some doctor would have to tell my wife "sorry, we couldn't save your husband. And by the way, here's the 6 figure bill you'll have to pay for all the treatment we provided before he died."

Our previous Prime Minister in his infinite wisdom attempted to force an American-style healthcare system upon the Australian public. This was done on those brief occasions when he wasn't trying to disappear up the American president's ass at yet another photo op on the White House lawn. We were all being strongly encouraged to take out private medical insurance, because look at all the shiny, fancy services they could provide. A lot of people jumped on board, not all at once, but as the government advertising advised, if we didn't get in quickly before their deadline, we'd miss out on the super special discounted introductory rate & complimentary toaster. And once we were all on board, they could start reducing those government funded services and the only people who would be entitled to no cost treatment as they lay bleeding in the entrance way to Emergency would be those at the very bottom of society's social order, because they barely earned enough to pay rent, let alone contribute to the Big Insurance Companies coffers.

We don't get everything free here. I have to pay when I see my GP, I have to pay for any medication I might buy as part of my treatment, and for any elective surgery (like my glorious new pec implants), but emergency care is always available.

[Ben...]

I have always been fairly healthy. I eat right, stay relatively active, and apart from the occasional broken bone or accident with something sharp (and recent disagreements with a persistent sinus infection), haven't really required major medical attention in my life.

We have a social health care system over here & I wouldn't have it any other way. A portion of every dollar I earn contributes to it, and as you can see from my last para, I haven't taken a great deal of advantage of it. But whilst the extra money in pocket would be nice (although under another system it, and a bunch more of my money, would have to be paid to an insurance company to cover not only my possible healthcare but also all their administrative costs, advertising budgets, shiny new prospectuses & annual reports, etc) I'm happy to contribute, because if and when I find myself hauled off to hospital in an emergency and require a rash of expensive tests, scans, treatments, etc. it's not going to cost me or the family I might leave behind a red cent. I hate to think that some doctor would have to tell my wife "sorry, we couldn't save your husband. And by the way, here's the 6 figure bill you'll have to pay for all the treatment we provided before he died."

Our previous Prime Minister in his infinite wisdom attempted to force an American-style healthcare system upon the Australian public. This was done on those brief occasions when he wasn't trying to disappear up the American president's ass at yet another photo op on the White House lawn. We were all being strongly encouraged to take out private medical insurance, because look at all the shiny, fancy services they could provide. A lot of people jumped on board, not all at once, but as the government advertising advised, if we didn't get in quickly before their deadline, we'd miss out on the super special discounted introductory rate & complimentary toaster. And once we were all on board, they could start reducing those government funded services and the only people who would be entitled to no cost treatment as they lay bleeding in the entrance way to Emergency would be those at the very bottom of society's social order, because they barely earned enough to pay rent, let alone contribute to the Big Insurance Companies coffers.

We don't get everything free here. I have to pay when I see my GP, I have to pay for any medication I might buy as part of my treatment, and for any elective surgery (like my glorious new pec implants), but emergency care is always available.

High Five other Commonwealth person! You just said exactly what I mean. It sounds like we have the same system. You get what you need when you need it and that's all that matters. I'm assuming you guys have work related insurance coverage too. What I mean is that my parents have 100% dental coverage for me and up to a certain amount for glasses (I go through a pair or two a year because of my crappy eyes). I don't know how people who work at American insurance companies can judge human life versus a monitary value. It's just puzzling. A couple of provinces here are allowing that kind of privatized medical care. It's actually okay because you can get treated by a government facility like usual or if you have enough money you can go to these places and get fancier treatment. Either way you'll get helped. It's just how special you want to get treated (Food and whatnot). The few times I've been in the hospital I've always gotten people to bring me food (Tim Horton's since there's always one near hospitals for some reason) to avoid the somewhat sub par hospital food.