Keep buying crap made in China suckers

[AK47]

I agree, but without unions you have greedy CEOs that will fuck everyone in the ass to make an extra penny. Look at the 1900s before unions when fighting between workers and (railroad / oil, etc). People were working 12 hours a day in horrible conditions while the Morgans and Rockefellers(sp?) got rich.

There doesn't seem to be a happy medium.

Times have changed we dont need unions anymore. We have labor laws and OSHA now. Unions are killing this country.

Regarding the Health Care remark about having a heart attack and the clinic not treating you because of no insurance is BS.

The media and politicians lead you to beleive without universal healthcare the ERs are letting people die and bleed to death in the ERs which is BS. They have to treat you if you go to the ER.

Look at how many illegals are using the ER for their primary care. Everyone gets treated and billed but illegals dont pay because they have no ID.

Newc's a closet commie and Fuck Toejam!

[Endrik]

They already get free college for their kids and only work 9 months of the year.

based on how Mark describes the situation, in their position I'd also strike to get free blowjobs, free pack of Xanax for every week, early retirement, huge pension and one way ticket to Tahiti.

[DonP]

I agree, but without unions you have greedy CEOs that will fuck everyone in the ass to make an extra penny. Look at the 1900s before unions when fighting between workers and (railroad / oil, etc). People were working 12 hours a day in horrible conditions while the Morgans and Rockefellers(sp?) got rich.

There doesn't seem to be a happy medium.

[Spivonious]

I hope it doesn't either.

I think the idea of unions is great. Too many companies were treating their workers like crap. But some of them are just getting too greedy. The big ones that come to mind are the UAW and the teachers union. We almost missed a semester in college because the teacher's were going to strike over having to pay for health benefits. That's right, the state was paying 100% of their benefits and they were going to strike because the state wanted to have the teachers pay something like 5%. That's just ridiculous. They already get free college for their kids and only work 9 months of the year.

[DonP]

My argument is that you either have unions or you have what you have with WalMart - low pay, no benefits. Seems like there is only these two extremes.


I'm in IT too, but I work in ERP systems for struggling companies. My jobs have been outsourced to India.

Spivonious, keep saving your money, because once your company figures out that they can save a penny shipping your job to India, well, I hope that day doesn't come for you.

[Spivonious]

I just got a 4% raise this year (software developer, obviously non-union).

I think the idea of unions is good, but in practice they just force employers to pay through the nose for wages and benefits. The average assembly line guy at GM makes more than me and gets better benefits. How is that "protecting the worker"? They should be making $15/hour and get crappy benefits, otherwise what's the point of getting higher education?

The only thing I agree with the Democrats on is that we need socialized healthcare. The free market system just doesn't work when you're dealing in lives.

ER: "Oh, you had a heart attack? I'll save your life for $250,000."
Patient: "Ooh, that's a lot of money. I think I'll check what the hospital across town charges."

That's just not going to happen.

Tim - I'm fine with getting rid of antitrust laws and environmental regulations. If the consumer cares about the environment, then they won't buy products from a company that's polluting. If the consumer doesn't want a monopoly, they'll buy from the competitor. Just look at how many people in this thread (including myself) that refuse to shop at Walmart.

[Cleveland Metal]

Shouldn't be limited by congress at all whatsoever. They'll just simply leave the country with their biz.

There are however known business model practices that should be followed to some extent if they want to build a good and happy workforce that works hard and does the job to their willful best ability. People will work very hard under the right treatment. They will slouch when they feel taken advantage of.

There's an art to human relations in business as far as maintaining a happy and ambitious workforce.

[Jayster]

And you're right about the upper management making way too much while making cuts on the lower end workers.

To limit earning potential is crap, if our congress feels differently let them lead the way by reducing there own salaries instead of voting themselves automatic raises. While were at it let them start paying social security and lets wipe out thier retirement packages too!

Fugg'em

[Cleveland Metal]

I'm sub poor slob now... and would give my left ____ to be pulling 70k...

And you're right about the upper management making way too much while making cuts on the lower end workers.

What's whacked, is that both sides here make valid points on both areas... Glad there's people smarter than me making decisions on all this shit...

[Newc]

You want joe blow's dollar, make competitive products in terms of price and quality...we wont becasue the American worker wants 40 dollars an hour for unskilled labor

And why are the Executives pulling in $3M a year? Because they went to bizniz skool?

My ass. When Top Dawgs get a raise, the guy that actually did the work to make it happen should get one of an equal ratio. If the Exec that says "build green widgets" gets a 35% pay raise because he had such a great idea, the people on the line - yes, even the "unskilled" worker - should get a 35% raise. When percentage-based performance bonuses are handed out in the ivory tower, the same percentage should be handed out on the line. If the bonuses are flat-rate, then guess what? Flat-rate bonuses down on the killing floor.


And this "unskilled labor" thing is getting out of hand - I can operate a mechanical stamping press: perform setups, completely change out the dies, etc etc - not just "turning it on", but the full Operation, including basic mechanical maintenance (i.e. replacing parts within the limits of the safety program and LOTO); I can operate a forklift and am certified by OSHA to train forklift operators; I can do what needs to be done on computers; I can read a blueprint to know which die I need to run which part; I can perform most safety-related tasks from job hazard analysis through accident investigations, exposure monitoring and control, etc; I can generate any training material needed - digital, printed, or video; and I can fill in for the Supervisor when needed, and I never went to school for any of it. The only documentation I have for any of that is a certificate stating I've completed the OSHA Forklift Trainer Training, so yeah, I'm "unskilled". So are the other people I work with who can do the same things I can do and learned it on the job just like I did.

Unskilled my ass. Pay me what the job is worth and don't worry about whether or not I went to College.


I'm certainly not in favor of labor unions - they've done their part - but I will say their power may come in handy during the current recession, as the high-dollar CEOs are going to look closely at cutting pay for everyone but themselves, even if it means devaluing the job. Minimum wage will still be minimum wage, but don't expect those College degrees to get you more than $35K a year, and don't expect a yearly raise, either.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how hard and often our elected officials suck on the cocks of big business. They're gurgling mayonnaise 24/7.

If you take away the necessary evil of Organized Labor Lawyers now, no one will be able to withstand the steamroller that will completely divide this country into the Rich and the Poor. There will be no "middle class", there will be Billionaires and paupers, that's it.

If American companies want American consumers' dollars, cut the pay at the top among those who can afford it the most, not the people that can't afford a 10% cut. If you can't put a roof over your head and food on your table for $70K in this country, you need to see about one of those free seminars on proper financial management and living within your means.
And if you don't think $70K is far enough away from those poor slobs making $30-$40K a year, you need an ego check.

[AK47]

Read this, especially the last couple of paragraphs under Criticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAW

Looks like the other, off shore, non unionized companies are getting bailouts from their respective governments and are experiencing huge losses. Is the UAW at fault there too?



No you don't have total control over everything when it comes to employment, especially if you work for someone else, regardless of how well you perform. What if you get laid off and there's no work in your field? Sure you can relearn a different skill or trade, but what if no one is hiring because of the current economic situation? Are you in control then? For example, my company is growing right now and our management put a freeze on hiring, raises, and bonuses because of the uncertainty of current economic climate. I'd sure as hell hate to be on the outside looking in right now. Alot of good people who thought they were in control are out of work.

From your logic I can assume that the people that are unemployed and can't find work deserve it because they are lazy, unmotivated, unskilled, and "fail at life" right? You need to open your eyes.

Better yet, I think FOX is showing reruns of Hannity and Bill O'Reilly right about now. Why don't you go watch that so we can let this thread go.

UAW union has nothing to do with Europe or their car sales slumping. They are screwing up our domestic auto industry by the inflated cost they add to operate for their job banks and other screwy benefits. All industry is slumping right now except the arms industry.

You pay into Unemployment then go to the EDD office here in California to collect your check till you find another job. I dont see why I need a middle man like a Union to do this. You paid into unemployment and you are entitled to it, thats it.

It may not be someone's fault they are unemployed but if they cant find work in their field by the time unemployment benefits run out then you have to take whatever job you can get. Once again why is a union needed?

Or are certain people in certain fields "above" taking certain jobs if they cant find one in their field?

Not a fan of O'Reilly he is anti-capitalist and he cant stop creeping out his interns. Never cared for Hannity either I do like Glen Beck though.

[RacerX]

I make more than I did 10 years ago. Not much more....but hey. I make way more than I did 5 years ago.

[khabibissell]

Read this, especially the last couple of paragraphs under Criticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAW

Looks like the other, off shore, non unionized companies are getting bailouts from their respective governments and are experiencing huge losses. Is the UAW at fault there too?

Yes that is what I am saying. I have total control over everything I do with my life not someone else. I have turned down work because I did not like the working conditions or the employer's attitude. I am also open to learning new skills and taking a job somewhere else if I chose to.

I wish my outlook was naive but I have seen too much shit to be anyhting more than naive. If you cant count on yourself to control your future than you fail at life.

No you don't have total control over everything when it comes to employment, especially if you work for someone else, regardless of how well you perform. What if you get laid off and there's no work in your field? Sure you can relearn a different skill or trade, but what if no one is hiring because of the current economic situation? Are you in control then? For example, my company is growing right now and our management put a freeze on hiring, raises, and bonuses because of the uncertainty of current economic climate. I'd sure as hell hate to be on the outside looking in right now. Alot of good people who thought they were in control are out of work.

From your logic I can assume that the people that are unemployed and can't find work deserve it because they are lazy, unmotivated, unskilled, and "fail at life" right? You need to open your eyes.

Better yet, I think FOX is showing reruns of Hannity and Bill O'Reilly right about now. Why don't you go watch that so we can let this thread go.

[AK47]

So what you are saying is that you have total control of your future, wages, and working conditions when you work for someone else? I'm sure the nearly 10% of Americans that are out of work would agree with you...

You have an incredibly naive outlook on things.

Yes that is what I am saying. I have total control over everything I do with my life not someone else. I have turned down work because I did not like the working conditions or the employer's attitude. I am also open to learning new skills and taking a job somewhere else if I chose to.

I wish my outlook was naive but I have seen too much shit to be anyhting more than naive. If you cant count on yourself to control your future than you fail at life.

[rjohnstone]

So what you are saying is that you have total control of your future, wages, and working conditions when you work for someone else? I'm sure the nearly 10% of Americans that are out of work would agree with you...

You have an incredibly naive outlook on things.

I think it is you who are being naive.
Unions don't have the level of control you're talking about.
All those auto workers at Toyota and Honda factories here in the US seem to be doing just fine without the UAW.
Unions were created in a time before modern labor laws, OSHA and the EPA existed.
Now a worker can sue an employer on his own. There are plenty of blood sucking lawyers out there who will jump at the opportunity to turn an employee lawsuit into bank.

And explain to me how a union would have helped the nearly 10% who are out of work right now?
Oh that's right... they will pay you to sit on your fat ass while the company goes under.