Keep buying crap made in China suckers

[khabibissell]

If you have to count on someone to watch out for your best intrests in todays world you have already failed.

I am not going to pay someone to look out for me. I am going to do that myself. The unions are going the way of the dinosaur. You are not dealing with a bunch of ignorant people that dont know how to read anymore that need someone to represent them.

The only unions that still have a place are the Prison guards and LE unions because of all the legal fiascos etc... I wish they would go as well but I at least understand why they are around.

So what you are saying is that you have total control of your future, wages, and working conditions when you work for someone else? I'm sure the nearly 10% of Americans that are out of work would agree with you...

You have an incredibly naive outlook on things.

[AK47]

You're not getting it are you? Unions are one important thing we have in place to protect workers. It is also provides members with excellent compensation. If union compensation falls, then non union autoworker compensation will fall eventually as well. If unions are abolished, it also opens the door for employers to possibly take advantage of their employees. When you work for somebody, you are at their mercy. It doesn't hurt to have someone looking out for you and to make sure that doesn't happen.

I dont think you are getting it. OSHA, EPA all these .gov programs are set to protect the workers there is no need for the unions anymore.

That excellent Union compensation costs big money and it is what is costing GM.

If you have to count on someone to watch out for your best intrests in todays world you have already failed.

I am not going to pay someone to look out for me. I am going to do that myself. The unions are going the way of the dinosaur. You are not dealing with a bunch of ignorant people that dont know how to read anymore that need someone to represent them.

The only unions that still have a place are the Prison guards and LE unions because of all the legal fiascos etc... I wish they would go as well but I at least understand why they are around.

[AK47]

I know I should probably put on my tin foil hat before I say this, but I think the Bush administration (Republicans) tried to gain more governmental control by using the terrorism threat and the Obama administration (Dems) are using the downturn in the economy to gain more control. People bitch about all the spending/bailouts/governmental influence on private industry and banking, but they seem to forget about the "Patriot" Act which has pretty far reaching influence into society and the daily dose of fear with that "threat level" BS. I'm not a fan of either party.

Why did Mccain have to choose Palin as a running mate?

I need to get premium status so I can post the political forums

This I can agree with.

[Cleveland Metal]

I know I should probably put on my tin foil hat before I say this, but I think the Bush administration (Republicans) tried to gain more governmental control by using the terrorism threat and the Obama administration (Dems) are using the downturn in the economy to gain more control. People bitch about all the spending/bailouts/governmental influence on private industry and banking, but they seem to forget about the "Patriot" Act which has pretty far reaching influence into society and the daily dose of fear with that "threat level" BS. I'm not a fan of either party.

Why did Mcain have to choose Palin as a running mate?

I need to get premium status so I can post the political forums

You're probably right on there with that one buddy. Tinfoil hat and all. It's not far from the truth I'm sure for both parties.

And, McCain fucked that Palin one up for sure.

[Cleveland Metal]

I'm making 60+% what I was making ten years ago...

Plenty of industries are non-union and do ok. I understand what you mean, but don't think they're helping any these days except sucking so much money out of the system it can't run in the US and people take their companies overseas. I'm sick of seeing guys make $30-45 an hour to sit in a bulldozer or whatever backed into a spot sleeping with the AC on. ect ect...

Once the Obama taxes start hitting the people with money, they're gonna run overseas quicker than you can imagine. Not unlike rockstars leaving Britain for the US.

[Razor]

The tragic reality is that a HUGE amount of the people here that are in the demographic that will work cheap, are absolute total f-ing retards that can't be trusted to stay out of jail, let alone actually make it to work reliably and maybe make something of any quality.

At least the chinese have a work ethic and "want" to work and do well in their job. Maybe they've had enough hardship to know what happens when you don't.

Most of the "A-hole" Americans, work just hard enough to not get fired.

Of course upper management has basically drove people that might actually worked hard and effectively, to lose initiative by the way they treat the workers. There's no doubt there.

I venture to say a lot guys here on a guitar collector board are from areas where there is some public sensibility with the general population to "some" extent. In the inner cities, a vast amount of the poorer people are absolutely ignorant freaks. Watch a few episode of COPs and that is what a large amount of the American public is about.

Other country's people are dying to come here for education and are happy to take the world by the balls and work (often back in their own countries of course). But many American cities are full of people that are worthless uneducated ignorant idiots with some deranged sense of entitlement and welfare state mentality.

With what I experience and see in the onner cities, I see why we're so fucked. And at some point, nothing short of few hundred effectively placed neutron bomb will help.

This is what we have to work with people. No stimulis package can fix dumbass ignorants fucks. You just can't fix stupid.

Yeah, do I sound bitter? Well ya got that shit straight....

I hear you loud and clear. It's sad how true this is. The majority of Americans don't want to acheive the "Great Society", the want it handed to them the lazy bastards.

[khabibissell]

I know I should probably put on my tin foil hat before I say this, but I think the Bush administration (Republicans) tried to gain more governmental control by using the terrorism threat and the Obama administration (Dems) are using the downturn in the economy to gain more control. People bitch about all the spending/bailouts/governmental influence on private industry and banking, but they seem to forget about the "Patriot" Act which has pretty far reaching influence into society and the daily dose of fear with that "threat level" BS. I'm not a fan of either party.

Why did Mccain have to choose Palin as a running mate?

I need to get premium status so I can post the political forums

[bombtek]

Face it people. We are all fucked. Who here is making more than they made 10 years ago? Prices have gone up over the past ten years, but wages haven't. And the "cool" thing these days is to cut pay / 401K / etc.

I for one am making waaaaay more than I was 10 yrs ago. The military does not pay all that well when you're actually a soldier. Now as a civilian that works for the Dept of the Army, I make almost 4X what I made my last year on active duty.

[khabibissell]

So what do we need unions for?

Your in IT and non-union are you getting screwed?

Plenty of non union plants are doing great. Toyota and Honda make some lame looking cars and some gas hogs as well. They have non union workers and plants in the USA. They dont need a bailout.

Let me guess you think the government should provide healthcare to help offset the UAW costs. That is what they were saying the other day. Fuck those commie fucks they are what is destroying the domestic auto industry.

You do realize the UAW go on break for hours and hang out at the bar and go bowling while on the clock and getting paid?

You're not getting it are you? Unions are one important thing we have in place to protect workers. It is also provides members with excellent compensation. If union compensation falls, then non union autoworker compensation will fall eventually as well. If unions are abolished, it also opens the door for employers to possibly take advantage of their employees. When you work for somebody, you are at their mercy. It doesn't hurt to have someone looking out for you and to make sure that doesn't happen.

I agree some union workers take advantage of the system. I worked for SUN at a Ford engineering facility and I saw it first hand. Living in the Detroit area, I hear the stories all the time. Even at that, I don't think the idead of having unions is wrong, and I don't think they are to blame for bad management decisions, a saturated market, a downturn in the economy, and a credit/lending crunch, all of which have put the automotive industry where it is at the moment. If you would read my first post in this thread, you'll see that I think there needs to be some changes at the top. I'm sure there's some corruption going on as well. I should also point out that there are plenty of unionized industries that are doing well. If unions were bad, then that wouldn't be the case. The auto industry is not doing too well overall... everyone is feeling the crunch. Blaming the UAW is ridiculous.

Healthcare is another issue, but I do feel that a citizen of the wealthiest (well, we were the wealthiest country) should have the right to a certain amount state provided benefits, healthcare being one of them. The issue I have with that is there is a tremendous amount of private wealth being generated from the system we have now, and I'd hate to see that taken away. This is a complicated issue for sure...

[Cleveland Metal]

We've already started and are well into our drastic change. They'll have us as a third world country sometime in the not so distant future...

No wonder Cheney bought that huge mansion and estate in Dubai....

[Shawn Lutz]

I think we're in for a drastic chang in the way of life in the US. The standards will have to go lower imho. The average Americian is overpaid, lazy with entitlement as their best friend....

WTF do we make in this country anymore? We make some kick ass films/CD's and weapons and import everything else We are on the way out as a super power in the global economy and industry.

We set the table for all of this and we will have to deal with it. You can't blame joe blow for needing to stretch his dollar and buy affordable products imported from other countries. You want joe blow's dollar, make competitive products in terms of price and quality...we wont becasue the American worker wants 40 dollars an hour for unskilled labor

How about giving an incentive to those who buy made in USA products..like less sales tax % or a home team discounts How about penalizing US corporations for manufractoring products outside our borders?

We're in need of some major changes around here

[AK47]

No, I don't think the UAW is responsible for the auto industry going to shit. Sounds like you've been watching too much FOX news. The fact is, abolishing unions is just the start. When that goes, the dominoes will keep falling and the middle class will get the shaft in terms of compensation, health care, and maintaining a safe work environment.

Why do you buy the things you buy? I'm sure price plays a role, but I'll bet you're willing to pay more for a product that suits your needs and is of better quality.

Personally I think some of the reasons why the US auto industry is having difficulties is because it is a bit bloated (Chevrolet, Pontiac, and GMC offering too many similar vehicles for example), putting too much emphasis on SUV's and other vehicles with poor fuel economy in a time when gas prices have gone through the roof, the inability to adapt to the global market place/chaging consumer tastes, and producing vehicles of inferior quality/features when compared to some imported brands for example. Also, the fact that the economy has taken a downturn I'm sure hasn't helped. New cars are a luxury item and when people are unsure about their future, they are less apt to buy these types of things.

So what do we need unions for?

Your in IT and non-union are you getting screwed?

Plenty of non union plants are doing great. Toyota and Honda make some lame looking cars and some gas hogs as well. They have non union workers and plants in the USA. They dont need a bailout.

Let me guess you think the government should provide healthcare to help offset the UAW costs. That is what they were saying the other day. Fuck those commie fucks they are what is destroying the domestic auto industry.

You do realize the UAW go on break for hours and hang out at the bar and go bowling while on the clock and getting paid?

[Joe_Steeler]

Tell you what, I am so mad at the chinese and North Koreans I told the wife no more sushi.
Das it, only Big Macs and KFC for the brood.

I won't even buy Taco Bell, all those damn mexicans bringing weapons into the country.

[khabibissell]

You dont think the UAW had everything to do with GM and the domestic auto industry going to shit?


We have this thing called OSHA and Workmans Comp as well as unemployment that most people pay into.

Why do we need unions again?

Thanks to the internet this is one big global economy and you have to remain competetive. This communist workers reform party rehtoric sounds good but no longer does it apply in todays world.

No, I don't think the UAW is responsible for the auto industry going to shit. Sounds like you've been watching too much FOX news. The fact is, abolishing unions is just the start. When that goes, the dominoes will keep falling and the middle class will get the shaft in terms of compensation, health care, and maintaining a safe work environment.

Why do you buy the things you buy? I'm sure price plays a role, but I'll bet you're willing to pay more for a product that suits your needs and is of better quality.

Personally I think some of the reasons why the US auto industry is having difficulties is because it is a bit bloated (Chevrolet, Pontiac, and GMC offering too many similar vehicles for example), putting too much emphasis on SUV's and other vehicles with poor fuel economy in a time when gas prices have gone through the roof, the inability to adapt to the global market place/chaging consumer tastes, and producing vehicles of inferior quality/features when compared to some imported brands for example. Also, the fact that the economy has taken a downturn I'm sure hasn't helped. New cars are a luxury item and when people are unsure about their future, they are less apt to buy these types of things.

[AK47]

Look, I don't work for a union (I'm in IT), but to say that Unions "destroyed" industry in the US is ridiculous. The causes are difficult to pinpoint exactly, but I would say that the global economy/global trade agreements have played the largest role. How can we compete with countries that don't have any pay standards in place, don't provide adequate healthcare/pension plans and take advantage of their workforce?

Do you think that people that work in manufacturing should be paid minimum wage or something more in line with what workers make in China? Do you think that safety standards and safeguards meant to protect workers in the workplace are unnecessary? Unions have brought alot of good to the workers of this country and abolishing them would be a taking a huge step backward. What if there are no unions in place and the economy is still in a shambles... who do you think is going to pay the price first, upper management or blue collar workers? The budgets for safety standards, ensuring adequate staffing to perform dangerous tasks, and most of all employee compensation will be the first to go. Without union contracts, the greedy fat cats that are only concerned with the bottom line will do anything to increase their profit margin, even if it means screwing their workforce. Unions are the only thing we have to protect workers in the non skilled labor workforce.

You dont think the UAW had everything to do with GM and the domestic auto industry going to shit?


We have this thing called OSHA and Workmans Comp as well as unemployment that most people pay into.

Why do we need unions again?

Thanks to the internet this is one big global economy and you have to remain competetive. This communist workers reform party rehtoric sounds good but no longer does it apply in todays world.