Keep buying crap made in China suckers

[horns666]

My kid broke his arm in half during wrestling. He had to get rods put in his radius and ulna. Total Cost $32,807.72. My co-pays were close to $2,300. My premiums are ridiculous, but they got me by the shorties for this very reason.

[Spivonious]

85SD - Agree with everything you said except healthcare. Healthcare needs to be taken care of. A heart bypass surgery costs over $40000. Chronic care costs a lot more. My dad has a kidney condition that could put him into renal failure any day now. If he wasn't still working, he wouldn't be able to get health insurance. That's not that the insurance would be too expensive, it's that no one will give him health insurance. He's always lived below his means. But you're saying that because he can't get health insurance that he should be forced to sell everything he owns to pay for needed care? There's just something not right about that.

[Endrik]

No matter what your philosophy it comes down to this: if the non-producers live as good a lifestyle as the producers sooner or later the producers will ask "why the hell am I underwriting them?" and no lib has an answer for that. The Soviets had 70 years to crack that fundamental problem and failed. We need to get back to "if you don't work you don't eat." if your co-worker sits on his ass all day while you work your guts out and both get paid the same, and both get the same raise then after while you'll sit your ass down right beside him. Why wouldn't you? That's why the Soviet system failed. That's why the crap thye built was no good, and oftentimes did not work.

Unemployment was pretty much non existent in Soviet Union. During some harsher periods some people were unemployed because there were no jobs.
Soviet Union is the prime example of "if you don't work you don't eat"
Every communistic country/union made propaganda how "the worker" is the most important.
You couldn't afford to be without work. You'd starve to death, end of story. And the food prices were very high. But during the harsher periods, a lot starved to death anyway. It wasn't a fantasy hippie land with big love and hand outs.
Soviet Union collapsed because it was run by extreme capitalist who put all the money into their pockets while letting everyone else live like crap.. and because it was a dictatorship... people get pissed off when someone rules over their lives.

[horns666]

"Back to IMHO:
That's why we need to stop this crap or there won't be anything left but the "shared misery". All this is a result of laziness. When your fat and happy nothing is good enough. if you had to worry where your next meal was coming from (every day, not the last day before payday) then people'd have less time to worry about animals in makeup, political correctness, or why Mexicans buying guns, and shooting people south of the border for srug money was OUR fault. We didn't force them to do anything. They made the choices. Our fault my ass. I beleive in workers rights and I believe in freedom from oppression.
Not freedom from recession, depression, or self inflicted poverty."
_________________

That's how I see it. You KNOW the majority of this country is doing peachy when there's such things as "Earth Week". The lower middle class and the poor don't give a flying fuck about saving the planet. Our 4.5 billion year old planet will be here long after we're gone. Like George Carlin once said "The planet is fine..it's the people that are fucked...The earth will shake us off like fleas".

Like I always say. Humans are masochists that love drama. We demand it and will do anything to get it.

[85 San Dimas]

Seriously, someone has to foot the bill or we're saying "fuck 'em". A serious medical condition is probably the most sure fire way to become homeless and destitute almost overnight in the US. Does that seem like a good approach?

It beats sharing the misery with those who have done no wrong. Punishing savers to underwrite spenders is no good. Sometimes we just have to accept that life isn't fair.

One thing an old guy told me once...if you want to be rich one day just watch the poor people..............and then don't do what they do. If you want good heathcare look at what HAS worked and what HAS not. What DID work was simple GP offices that served a clientele. we don't have more diseases than before, just more drugs being marketed trying to convince people to buy them. It's about generating Patents then profits. Drugs should not be advertised. That's IMHO. But to me this is not:

No matter what your philosophy it comes down to this: if the non-producers live as good a lifestyle as the producers sooner or later the producers will ask "why the hell am I underwriting them?" and no lib has an answer for that. The Soviets had 70 years to crack that fundamental problem and failed. We need to get back to "if you don't work you don't eat." if your co-worker sits on his ass all day while you work your guts out and both get paid the same, and both get the same raise then after while you'll sit your ass down right beside him. Why wouldn't you? That's why the Soviet system failed. That's why the crap thye built was no good, and oftentimes did not work.

Back to IMHO:
That's why we need to stop this crap or there won't be anything left but the "shared misery". All this is a result of laziness. When your fat and happy nothing is good enough. if you had to worry where your next meal was coming from (every day, not the last day before payday) then people'd have less time to worry about animals in makeup, political correctness, or why Mexicans buying guns, and shooting people south of the border for srug money was OUR fault. We didn't force them to do anything. They made the choices. Our fault my ass. I beleive in workers rights and I believe in freedom from oppression.
Not freedom from recession, depression, or self inflicted poverty.

I'll keep my guns, my money, and my freedom...you can keep the "change"

[442w30]

..

Friggin' Awesome!

[horns666]

..

[GodOfRhythm]

Like I said before.

AK's argument has more to do with a (perceived) flaw in government or democracy than with (socialized) health care.

Your conspiracy theories are just unfathomable.

[hippietim]

Well I am tired of all this class envy and .gov should take care of me nonsence.

Well, *somebody* is going to have to take care of some substantial number of people. There are a lot of people in the US that simply don't make enough money to cover their own health care services without insurance. And they don't have insurance. What do you do with them? And almost nobody in the US makes enough money to cover their own health care in the case of a major medical condition - often with some form of basic insurance. What about them?

Seriously, someone has to foot the bill or we're saying "fuck 'em". A serious medical condition is probably the most sure fire way to become homeless and destitute almost overnight in the US. Does that seem like a good approach?

It comes down to who do you trust more the Corporations or .gov?

If you assume both entities are operated by humans with roughly the same fundamental characteristics: varying degrees of love, hate, greed, generousity, ambition, apathy, etc. IOW, both .gov and .com are full of all sorts of people from good to bad and the folks that typically rise to the top are pretty similar.

Then it comes down to what is the fundamental purpose of each: .gov is to serve the people and .com is to make shareholders money.

I think I would rather have health care provided to me by the group whose goal is to serve the people rather than the group whose goal is to make a few dozen folks very wealthy.

I chose the corporations because they cant throw me in jail or decide what civil liberties to take away from me based on my medical history.

But corporations will sell you out in a heartbeat. Corporations already use medical conditions against employees all the time.

I do understand your concerns about the government taking away civil liberties after the last 8 years under the Bush administration. As Bush demonstrated so successfully, government always has the ability to use fear as a motivator to take away your civil liberties.

.gov can and will fuck you when they deny you healthcare treatment based on your age and history regardless of if you have money or not, so you have no one else to cry to but yourselves.

I'm glad you brought this up, it is exactly that sort of treachery that corporate America has demonstrated they would do time and again. Before labor laws, protections for pension funds, etc. companies would routinely leave senior employees out on the street, rape the pension fund, dismiss them just short of full retirement, etc.

Putting your well being in the hands of folks whose sole motivator is profit is a fundamentally flawed approach.

[Bert]

Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Franco Spain, Today's Burma, Iraq etc. are prime examples of social conservatism. Prime example of Life Style Police... dictating how you should live, what to like etc. and what not to do.. who you are suppose to hate etc.

Exactly. AK47 -- seriously, go back to your gun control debates where you actually know something about which you are talking about.

[Ben...]

Do you realize by having a socialized system you are left up to .gov maintaning control of your medical records and they decide what doctors you see. Lets say DHS thinks you are a "Right wing extremist" and you get on the list. You then go to the doctor to get treated for skin rash. They see you are on a "list" refer you to a psychologist. Then give you a diaganosis of DOP or delusions of Parasitosis and mentally incompetant. This was a common practice by other socialist or communist countries in the past.

Where do you get this stuff? I can pick whatever doctor I want. You can book an appointment with whoever you want, whenever you want and even get payed leave to go see them. I have a particular doctor who helped me deal with my severe strep throat I was getting a few years back. He was a completely different doctor than our family doctor. I prefer him though my mom prefers our old family doctor. Being that I'm not the age of majority I cannot book appointments for myself (As far as I know anyway) but as soon as I'm 18, I'm going to him instead. Who ever you got that info from is borderline tinfoil hat crazy.

"State sponsored birth control, abortion were all part of the Nazi bag of tricks that is not socially conservative to me. "


Then I'm a flaming Nazi!!!

Where do I sign?

No kidding. Our population is getting way too big and way too dumb at an alarming rate. People have said I have borderline socialist views and I don't necessarily disagree with that.

[horns666]

"State sponsored birth control, abortion were all part of the Nazi bag of tricks that is not socially conservative to me. "


Then I'm a flaming Nazi!!!

Where do I sign?

[marcus]

I view socialist programs as strongly anti-American so I tell people if thats what they want go to Canada or Cuba or wherever they have socialized medicine this is not going to work in America like it does in other countries. Its going to be a cluster fuck of epic proportions.

Saying that we shouldn't have socialized health care because its anti-American is actually a very weak argument. On the one hand, it is incorrect. On the other hand, it reeks of not having something better to say.

You do have somewhat of a point about it perhaps not working here though. The biggest hurdle is people having great misconceptions about what the implications of socialized health care are. A lot of people seem to think that it will be more expensive, and that it will lower quality. There is a lot of evidence that it is not the case, but that doesn't stop the Republicans from relentlessly pushing this line of argument. Since the Republicans are in the pocket of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries they will do everything in their power to stop it from happening, or at least watering down any reforms with huge giveaways to the corporations. This must not be allowed to happen. See the medicare drug program that was designed by Republicans for an example of this.

[marcus]

What I mean by the BATFE and regulatory power as in they interpert the laws they enforce which is a very dangerous thing. They collect evidence conduct there own investigation for which there is no federal guideline for then present them in court as undisputed fact.

Do you realize by having a socialized system you are left up to .gov maintaning control of your medical records and they decide what doctors you see. Lets say DHS thinks you are a "Right wing extremist" and you get on the list. You then go to the doctor to get treated for skin rash. They see you are on a "list" refer you to a psychologist. Then give you a diaganosis of DOP or delusions of Parasitosis and mentally incompetant. This was a common practice by other socialist or communist countries in the past.

You're just making shit up here. I see no reason to believe that any of this will happen under the current proposals. Are you familiar with them at all? Nobody will be forced to use the government health care option. You will still have the choice of keeping your health coverage that you have now. I actually didn't support Obama during the democratic primary because I felt his health care reform proposals did not go far enough.

Nothing complicated about Nazi ideology. They were Socialist that beleived in Eugenics. Where do you think Volkswagen came from? What does the name mean? They pushed issues like gun registration, universal healthcare and the people's car. They were by no means consevative or right wing even though the popular belief today in America is they were. They were a bunch of angry workers mad at the greedy corporations oh sorry I mean jews and wanted all the things you guys in this thread want.

You seem to be trying to paint the Nazis as some kind of left wing party, but this is just not the case. They were nationalists, pro-military & pro-expansion, and perhaps you have heard, they violently persecuted the jews and homosexuals. This sounds very right wing to me. In any case, what the hell does this have to do with the US and socialized health care? Where are the death camps in Sweden?

[atomic charvel guy]

Been telling you guys, it doesn't matter.

According to Nostradamus all this shit will not matter after 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Joe, but I am the all wise and ever knowing "Nostra -Thomas",
and all this shit will not matter when 2094 rolls around when the Rangers finally win another Stanley Cup.