RIP Pontiac

[LouSiffer]

It's unofficial, but, it looks like GM is going to kill the indian off. Their whole structure is stupid. Keeping Buick, but, selling or killing of Pontiac. Here is what I would do:

Get rid of Chevrolet trucks. You have GMC, now you have to pay to advertise the same freaking product and compete against yourself..... with the exact same product, but, a different label. DUMB!!

GM expected the GTO to help bring profits to the division. Nice thought, and it probably would have if they would have went with the original prototype, however, the bland " Dodge Neon looking" car you offered bit you in the ass. Sorry, we Americans do not like bland. The reason we are behind in a lot of things is because of the marketing strategies we employ here.

Bring back the Firebird/ Trans-Am. Yes, the Camaro is coming out, providing GM just doesn't close its doors, but, Pontiac was the step up from Chevy. If you wanted performance and a more upscale look, you bought a Poncho. The Chevy was more of a no frills, straight forward platform.

Saturn would go. So would Hummer.

Get quality up. I have a 2005 Cobalt with less than 34,000 on the ticker and am waiting for the engine to fall out of it. Yeah, its a Cobalt and nothing special, but, if I bought a Corolla or a Civic, you can bet your sweet ass I wouldn't have had to replace the parts on it that I have had to replace on the Cobalt.

Buick, if I kept them around, they would have 2 models, a nicely equipped 4 door sedan and a SUV/Crossover. Thats it. Done. These are the working man's Cadillac.

Cadillac has really re-shaped its image over the last 15 years. It seems to be a solid brand. I wouldn't change anything.

Chevy, well the Corvette does not make much profit, but, I think every brand needs a flagship car. I woud keep the Camaro for the Chevy performance fans, but, its other cars would just be contemporary looking putters. Nice, clean, nothing over the top.

Pontiac, I would make this the brand it used to be. The more cutting edge/ bold cars regarding looks. Chevy would have to keep their hands to themselves and quit controlling what Pontiac does. Example: The 1989 Fiero GT was utilizing a turbo 2.9 liter V-6. It was outperfoming the Corvettes of the day pretty handily. Chevy got their way and had the car killed citing poor sales. The sales weren't bad, but, that body had been running for 5 years. It was due for a facelift. Truth was, Chevy didn't want Pontiac selling a car that outperformed the Corvette for a lot less money.

GMC, this would be the only manufacturer of trucks for reason stated above in this topic.

[RacerX]

First off: Not so fast there, bud: GM denies Pontiac rumor http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php...ontiac-rumors/

2nd: Saturn & Hummer (Saab also IIRC) have been for sale for a while now

3rd: Caddy: you would kill the XLR?

4th: Fiero: there was no '89 Fiero, no TT V-6, the car was killed by '88. So I don't know where you're getting that Fieros were blowing Vettes away. BTW, seen any Fieros lately? They are rare as Yugos, LOL.

[horns666]

[Grandturk]

BTW, seen any Fieros lately? They are rare as Yugos, LOL.

I thought they mostly just burst into flames... "we build excitement!"

[442w30]

I think that each nameplate under GM has "a defining product". They should scrap it all, and only keep the best model for each brand.
How hard would it be to keep the top sellers for each
GMC Truck
Chevy Suburban
Chevy Corvette
Chevy econocars/midsize
Cadillac whatever
Buick high value luxury that isn't gaudy
Pontiac - more refined , highly optioned or over the top looking chevrolet sport models
Saturn - the best quality and sales model in GM, efficient cutting edge cars (electric models, hybrids, etc)
Hummer - factory monster truck

That would knock them down to about 12 car models instead of 6+ per division.

The moel broke due to each brand trying to capture A-Z markets - caddy going for entry level buyers, chevrolet going for high end, etc.

I have never figured out why people think GMC trucks are higher end. When I was growing up, GMC sounded generic, and all of the trucks were stripped down contractor models. Some time in the 1990s, that apparently changed, but I have NO idea why. It still sounds like a cheap brand name. Why it has been a separate name for around 50 years is a real head scratcher and a total waste.

[Shawn Lutz]

most are all cosmetic differences anyway. I prefer the looks ofthe GMC Yukon over Surburban (Trucks too). I also like Pontiac looks over anything Chevy myself...

[rjohnstone]

The Fiero was a death trap plain and simple.
The best engine you could get from the factory was a crappy 2.8 V6.
A turbo was not a factory option.
That damn things would overheat pretty easily.
Aftermarket mods are what the car great.
And while the C4 Vette may have been a joke by current standards, it would still smoke any prouction Fiero.

As for the Pontiac division, let it go.
It's mainly rebranded cars from other divisions.
Hell, the Vibe is nothing more than a rebadged Toyota Matrix with some body panel tweaks.

[Endrik]

Some time in the 1990s, that apparently changed, but I have NO idea why.

The A-Team, that's why

[tonemonster]

The A-Team, that's why

[LouSiffer]

First off: Not so fast there, bud: GM denies Pontiac rumor http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php...ontiac-rumors/

2nd: Saturn & Hummer (Saab also IIRC) have been for sale for a while now

3rd: Caddy: you would kill the XLR?

4th: Fiero: there was no '89 Fiero, no TT V-6, the car was killed by '88. So I don't know where you're getting that Fieros were blowing Vettes away. BTW, seen any Fieros lately? They are rare as Yugos, LOL.

Ron, do a search for 1989 Fiero prototype. There were a few built with a new turbo 2.9 liter. Yes, the performance numbers of the prototype were beating the C4 'vette. Sorry that the 'vette guys hate to hear this, but, it is what it is.


I also said Caddy was doing fine and I wouldn't make any changes. I thought it was easy to assume that the XLR would stay on the table.

Why are you trying to correct what I have already said regarding Saturn and Hummer..... they have been up for sale. I know this....and so is Saab.

Regarding the Fiero death trap and fire comments, the fire issue had to do with the 1984 model and oil leaking onto the exhaust manifold. This was resolved in the 1985 and up models and did not effect the V6 models. As for safety, the car was built around a cockpit roll cage. Go to a junk yard and look at one. The front trunk and rear engine compartment may be sheared or crushed, but, you will see that the passenger compartment is usually 100% in tact.

A lot of people have a bunch of bad information and opinions about this car. It was the poor man's 'vette. Poncho had plans to make it a top notch performer, Chevy stuck their paws in the mix and killed it.

This article doesnt mention the turbo 2.9 liter ....... it mentions a more realistic motor that went into place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiero#1990

[rjohnstone]

Lou... there was no 89 prototype... it was in 1990.
And only 1 was ever made.
And sorry... prototypes don't count in any argument to save Pontiac.

Chevy didn't kill it, it's own reputation did that. Deserved or not.
Pontiac used design cues from the 1990 Fiero prototype on the Firebird.

[LouSiffer]

There were more than 1 made. Only 1 survived. The others may not have looked like the 1990. They may have been '88s with newer underpinnings in design for for the 90 year. No one knows as GM has kept that hush hush.

I would love to see all the cars the Big 3 have made as prototypes that never got released or seen by the public.

I still say Chevy killed it. GM will never admit to it. Its hard to push a $40k sports car when a sister brand has one that can beat it for $25k.

[RacerX]

Ron, do a search for 1989 Fiero prototype. There were a few built with a new turbo 2.9 liter. Yes, the performance numbers of the prototype were beating the C4 'vette. Sorry that the 'vette guys hate to hear this, but, it is what it is.

OK, I saw the prototype on wikipedia, but your OP implies that 89s were sold and on the roads, beating Vettes. Not true, and as Rj already said, prototype(s) kinda don't count, heh.

I also said Caddy was doing fine and I wouldn't make any changes. I thought it was easy to assume that the XLR would stay on the table.

But...Cadillac just announced that the XLR is done. I thought you knew that, thus my question.

Why are you trying to correct what I have already said regarding Saturn and Hummer..... they have been up for sale. I know this....and so is Saab.

BeCAUSE your OP is "this is what LouSiffer would do", implying GM is not doing these things. In fact, GM has been trying to sell these divisions for awhile now. IOW your suggestions are already being implemented.

BTW Lousiffer, I saw a LOT of Fieros today! But....they were at the AHA (Kit car show) at Knott's http://www.pbase.com/michaelcorazzel..._under_the_sun so they all had fiberglass panels on 'em making 'em look like Lambos, Ferraris and GT40s! Ha ha!

[CharvelRocker]

Repost of something I wrote on another forum in regards to Saturn's likely demise:

"RIP Saturn Sky... I wish they sold that under another name as that is a stunning vehicle in terms of looks, and as I said in another thread, there is no way they GM could sell Saturn now. The Saturn brand has more or less been defunct since around 2000 if you go off of the gimmick that made the brand. As for Pontiac, I heard they were cutting back to 4 models. G5, G8, G3, Solstice. They should stop with that stupid "G" name crap. Catchy names help sell cars. G5 sounds like a chassis code.

If I was Pontiac, I would drop the G5 or sell it only in supercharged form, as it is otherwise redundant. GM's other option could be to do like Scion does with their tC for all their cars; the car is fairly basic in of itself but there is a wealth of after market performance parts. Coil overs, springs, struts, superchargers, swaybars, brakes, intakes, you name it they sell it type stuff. GM could have them as rebadged Chevys, but the aggressive styling and extensive aftermarket support would make it stand out and try to buy into the import crowd. GM also wouldn't even need to make the parts themselves to cut costs; license the name to put on it.

Then advertise, cram it down people's throats GM options all the aftermarket support of Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mitsubishi, with parts the quality of RalliArt, TRD, and Nismo. Now you're asking how to pay for this? Sell Hummer, Saab (which has more or less been done), and Buick (No room for them in their line up). GMC should be the badge for any vehicles sold as stripped down fleet machines with generic styling (IE all the flash ripped off). Chevy builds your blue-collar, working sedans and pickups. They sell for quality and value, not features. They get you from point A to point B comfortably, safe, and cheaply. And if you don't like the import-matchers Pontiac is selling, step up to Camaro or Corvette. Have you made it in life? Here is your Cadillac sir!

The point I am trying to make is GM got aggressive and probably saved Cadillac 7 or so years ago, so why not crank up the intensity, make stuff happen, change images, and make each brand totally unique and serve a purpose. Chrysler could do the same thing. Dodge is your name brand for Pickup trucks and muscle cars. Chrysler sells you solid family transportation in the forms of reasonably priced sedans and minivans. Finally, when you need something to cut through snow or drive over rocks, the Jeep brand fits your bill (Jeep is more or less setup this way).

These companies should not invest in fancy technologies and luxuries, but building high quality cars and how to build them better. At the end of the day, people want the best value nowadays, and if you have money for excess, you are not buying a Dodge or Chevy, so sell of your strength. /rant"

[LouSiffer]

Yeah, they are a great car for kits. You can get the kits where you have to lengthen the floor pan and you can get kits you don't have to.

Obviously, these kits will not perform as well as what they are imitating, but, they still aren't bad with some magic.