Am I Insane?

[Ben...]

Well, out of sheer boredom, I have decided to attempt to make my summer holiday productive and attempt to learn a second (Partial third, I know a little French because of school and I was actually good at it) language. I'm thinking either Japanese or German. If Japanese, I mainly want to learn to write it, and be able to speak basic sentences. I already looked at it a bit so I probably will go with it. I do not expect to be able to speak it fluently. I already looked at Hiragana and I somewhat grasp the idea behind it. I've only looked at this a bit but it should be fun.

So, how long do you think I will last? I am downloading a ton of exercises right now. I think this is the ultimate proof that I'm crazy but whatever, it'll be a fun activity to pass time.

[Jayster]

Ummm, ok ~

You might have fun downloading friedmans metal show in Japanese!!!

Freidman vs Paul Gilbert ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_r8DQQ0aW0

[Spivonious]

Good luck with the Hiragana, Ben. Don't forget about the Katakana too. You can't really write a complete sentence without both.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I know German from school but want to learn some other languages. I'm trying French, but the pronunciation is really messing with me. I'm also trying Japanese, but want to be able to read it and not just speak it, so the Romaji is off limits.

I'm finding this book very helpful for memorizing the letters: http://www.amazon.com/Kana-Manga-Uni...7233070&sr=8-1

It's kind of kid oriented, but it takes you through one sound in both hiragana and katakana per page. I'm taking it easy and doing two sounds a day.

[Jayster]

I spent my youth near Canada, I could drink in St. Catherines ......

I've learned Spanish(mostly while working at a chicken processing plant), some German and French in school. And also Hebrew ......

I'm altogether for anyone learning a new language, but it does take work and determination ....

When I speak Spanish there are different dialects between regions and etc.......

Just don't go into it thinking it will be the simplest thing you've ever done, that belittles the people and culture of the 'language' you're trying to learn.

Oh yaeh * I also studied Latin in college. It's a great thing to learn another language ~ but not the easiest of tasks ......

[GodOfRhythm]

I spent my youth near Canada, I could drink in St. Catherines ......

I've learned Spanish(mostly while working at a chicken processing plant), some German and French in school. And also Hebrew ......

I'm altogether for anyone learning a new language, but it does take work and determination ....

When I speak Spanish there are different dialects between regions and etc.......

Just don't go into it thinking it will be the simplest thing you've ever done, that belittles the people and culture of the 'language' you're trying to learn.

Oh yaeh * I also studied Latin in college. It's a great thing to learn another language ~ but not the easiest of tasks ......

My firm basis in latin has given me so much of an advantage in learning other languages. I'm very glad I did latin for my 6 years in high school and for a couple of college years. Not only do you (naturally) easily understand Roman languages and their rootwords and whatnot, you also go deeper than that and start to understand the fundamentals of deciphering syntax, patterns, verbs, conjugations and whatnot, whatever language form it may be.


I'd say you're going for japanese, good luck! Would love to do that one day too. if it DOES turn out to be German, I can give you a hand, also Spiv, the French stuff, I can help with that too.

[atomic charvel guy]

I'd say learn another language when summer is over-lol

[Rsmacker]

I know all the Japanese you need to know. The word is pronounced "Unko-tari".




It means "Dripping Shit".




OK, that's Japanese covered, what other languages do you want to learn?

[toxikdeth]

I hate learning foreign languages
Speek ensglish or die

[Ben...]

I hate learning foreign languages
Speek ensglish or die

Now I have Sargent D and the Storm Troopers of Death stuck in my head.

I'm gonna attempt this starting tomorrow. I'm going to the lake and the weather's supposed to be bad.

[Spivonious]

Ima nanji desu ka?

Welches Uhr ist es?

GoR - The thing I can't get past is how so many words in French can sound exactly the same but look completely different.

For example, the verb "to give"

Je donne
Tu donnes
Il donne
nous donnons
vouz donnez
ils donnent

donnes sounds just like donnez, right?

[Guitardude86]

Bombenhagel!!!

[GodOfRhythm]

Ima nanji desu ka?

Welches Uhr ist es?

GoR - The thing I can't get past is how so many words in French can sound exactly the same but look completely different.

For example, the verb "to give"

Je donne
Tu donnes
Il donne
nous donnons
vouz donnez
ils donnent

donnes sounds just like donnez, right?

Nope

The "s" at the end of a word, such as this verb is silent, UNLESS there is a vowel following it (like at the start of the new word).

So crudely speaking, and forgive my lack of knowledge of actual phonetics it'd be like this:

Tu donnes would be pronounced just like (je) donne --> "don"

unless a word follows that starts with a vowel. Much in the same way as in English where you'd add an 'n' to 'a' (like in "aN understanding").

In French this can happen in two ways. Sometimes the word gets an ADDED consonant if the word ended in a vowel (such as the use of the word 'de' (of/from)---> sometimes it becomes 'des'.

Well in the case of the -S being at the end of the word, the word doesn't end with a vowel, but the silent consonant gets spoken, where it is otherwise SILENT in French, in that case it actually gets kind of spoken "through your teeth" or "under you words". "Donnes" might actually be a bad example for this, since a lot of native speakers would possibly not even mention the -S at all, though you could for good form (example: Si tu donnes Un chien ---> si tu donne-s-Un chien) (think of it as almost a sort of synaloephe kind of thing from poetry, but with linguistic rules instead of needs imposed by the use of a meter-system)


Now as far as the difference between Donnes and Donnez is concerned, these are definitely not pronounced the same way, the difference is actually quite large so it is an important one.

Donnes, as we've said, is usually pronounced the same as Donne (s is silent).

Donnez is pronounced exactly as it is written, but the Z as a letter itself is silent, in terms of pure pronunciation you could perhaps think of it as written as Donné (but be very careful with this, since Donné is pretty much an other verbal form of Donner (passé composé) as well as being the same in pronunciation as the unconjugated form Donner.

It is actually hard for me to come up with an English word that has the same kind of "long e", it might pretty much not even be a part of the natural palette of native English speakers, in this case you need to practice practice practice.

So to recap:

SAME IN PRONUNCIATION (unless vowel follows---> silent s is then spoken)

SINGULAR
1st pers Je Donne
2nd pers Tu Donnes
3rd pers Il/Elle/On Donne


DIFFERING IN PRONUNCIATION

PLURAL

1st pers Nous Donnons ((the "-ns" is sillent, but adds a bit of length to the short "o")) (Nous "Donnoh"))

2 pers Vous Donnez (( hard to find a way of accurately portraying this pronunciation in text, since I can't seem to find English that has the same type of sound, you might best want to find a clip on youtube with a good native speaker using it))

3rd pers Ils/Elles Donnent (-nt is silent, same pronunciation as the SINGULAR forms, but this usually stays SILENT even when a vowel follows it)
------------------

It's very hard to convey this over text, also because it is very natural to me. We get taught French from the 4th or 5th year of our elementary school system (6 years in total) and for another 6 years during high school, for at least 4 or 5 hours a week. In addition to having a lot of college texts in French. Also in my course of study, Law, it is pretty much considered a sort of non-spoken prerequisite. We may be Dutch (Flemmish) but we have to be able to understand, work with and communicate orders/subpoenas/what have you in French from the French speaking courts in Belgium, which is of course a very laden, dense and incredibly complicated and verbose form of French even I and most other Flemmish Belgians struggle with to some degree.

-----------------

The pronunciation will be the hardest part. I speak English with an almost completely American accent, to the point a lot of Americans have actually asked me "where in the states are you from?" when I talk to them somewhere in Europe. So I take that as a sort of basis to judge the difficulties. The number one thing you'd have to be mindful of as a native American-English speaker, would be, imo, your tendency to "float" on words and vowels: making them long and dragging them out. Like: "That dohoog has goaat some taaastyyyyy treats" [that dog has got some tasty treats].

The second thing, and I'm probably forgetting a whole bunch more!, would be to remember that your natural palette might/will just not include certain sounds needed in pronouncing foreign languages accurately. In this case all there is to it is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE and dilligence. We also had to do this, Dutch is germanic, French is romanic. For example the "g" is mostly a silent, unspoken, but still audibly present in some way, in French, in a completely different way from a Dutch "g", or maybe even an English "g". Much like the "k" in "know" in English.

It's very funny to hear english-bastardized Latin. The way english or other language speakers pronounce Latin/French/... is usually funny sounding. It seems they simply project their own, already existing speech patterns and palette of sounds and way of stressing words on another language, discarding differences as unimportant. This is a hurdle you will have to overcome to become both fluent and convincing in another language.

---------------
I could have conveyed the above in 5 simple words, had we the benefit of just oral discourse or soundfiles. But as I said, look up some French classes on youtube, from native French speakers or from a GOOD native English French teacher.

If you want, run the vids or material you are choosing to learn from by me first, and I could tell you wether the person(people) explaining/teaching/speaking French are actually speaking it correctly or sound like foreigners "trying" to speak French.

You'd be surprised how many "French teachers" I've spoken to, from other languages, though predominantly English, but also some Chinese or Japanese, whose pronunciation is complete crap, to the point of me actually having to decipher the words to form their originals in my mind and then having to assume, "oh he will have meant this or that word in French".

Hope that helped!

[Rsmacker]

Or just speak LOUDLY and S-L-O-W-L-Y in English until Johnny Foreigner backs down and speaks English. (They all can you know, they pretend not to just to be awkward)

GOR, that last post was fucking brilliant. I haven't read it, but I will, and I'll pay attention, I'm actually very much into being able to speak something in the local tongue, even if it is just "Hello, please,thank-you, where is the railway station, help me, I'm English and my drinks appear to have been spiked, my passport has been stolen and I'm wearing a complete stranger's underwear, please call the British Consulate immediately, let go of me you Fascist bastard pig, we beat you in the War you know" etc etc. You know, just the essentials to get by.

[toxikdeth]

Now I have Sargent D and the Storm Troopers of Death stuck in my head.

I'm gonna attempt this starting tomorrow. I'm going to the lake and the weather's supposed to be bad.

Your welcome Lake and bad weather sounds like alot of fun where i live its like 100 degrees it sucks

[Spivonious]

Wow, thanks GoR!

Maybe I should just take a course at the local college or something.

So "You give hotel" would be Tu donnes hotel, pronounced "too donn sotel"? But because the s is normally silent, I pretend the word donnes ends in e, so the e isn't pronounced?

Maybe it's the romantic vs. germanic that's messing me up. English and German are both germanic, so there's wasn't that big of a leap. Maybe if I started with Spanish or Italian then French would come a bit more naturally?