E Minor = A Dorian scale questions

[Grandturk]

Alright theory heads - drop some knowledge on me.

I'm not a theory guy. I know my pentatonics, and its taken me 20 years to learn the minor scale.

So the notes in E Minor (aolian, i think?) are the same as the notes in G Major and A Dorian. What else? If I were to take what I know of the just my knowledge of E Minor, what other modes does it give me?

[Grandturk]

How about an illustration?

This is E Minor, G Major and A Dorian:


--------------------------------------------------14-15-17
----------------------------------------13-15-17----------
------------------------------12-14-16--------------------
--------------------12-14-16------------------------------
----------12-14-15----------------------------------------
12-14-15--------------------------------------------------

What else?

[Jacksons Shred]

In the key of Eminor you have

G Ionian (Relative Major), A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian , F# Locrian

[Jacksons Shred]

How about an illustration?

This is E Minor, G Major and A Dorian:


--------------------------------------------------14-15-17
----------------------------------------13-15-17----------
------------------------------12-14-16--------------------
--------------------12-14-16------------------------------
----------12-14-15----------------------------------------
12-14-15--------------------------------------------------

What else?

That's just Eminor, not GMajor or A Dorian. I tabbed out what each of the following scales would be in the case of E minor.

G Ionian (Major)

E||--------------------------------5-7-8
B||--------------------------5-7-8------
G||--------------------4-5-7------------
D||--------------4-5-7------------------
A||--------3-5-7------------------------
E||--3-5-7------------------------------

A Dorian

---------------------------------7-9-10-
--------------------------7-9-10--------
--------------------5-7-9---------------
--------------5-7-9---------------------
--------5-7-9---------------------------
--5-7-8---------------------------------

B Phrygian

--------------------------------------8-10-12-|
------------------------------8-10-12---------|
-----------------------7-9-11-----------------|
----------------7-9-10------------------------|
---------7-9-10-------------------------------|
--7-8-10--------------------------------------|

C Lydian

-------------------------------------------10-12-14-|
----------------------------------10-12-13----------|
--------------------------9-11-12-------------------|
------------------9-10-12---------------------------|
----------9-10-12-----------------------------------|
--8-10-12-------------------------------------------|

D Mixolydian

-----------------------------------------------12-14-15-|
--------------------------------------12-13-15----------|
-----------------------------11-12-14-------------------|
--------------------10-12-14----------------------------|
-----------10-12-14-------------------------------------|
--10-12-14----------------------------------------------|

E Aeolian (Minor)

-----------------------------------------------14-15-17-|
--------------------------------------13-15-17----------|
-----------------------------12-14-16-------------------|
--------------------12-14-16----------------------------|
-----------12-14-15-------------------------------------|
--12-14-15----------------------------------------------|

F# Locrian

-----------------------------------------------14-15-17-||
--------------------------------------13-15-17----------||
-----------------------------14-16-17-------------------||
--------------------14-16-17----------------------------||
-----------14-15-17-------------------------------------||
--14-15-17----------------------------------------------||

[VitaminG]

That's just Eminor, not GMajor or A Dorian. I tabbed out what each of the following scales would be in the case of E minor.

why not? it's all the same notes. If you were to play the Eminor fragment tabbed above over a GMajor progression, nobody is going to be offended. Only the starting note of the scale and chord progression that it is played over is going to determine its tonality

likewise, you can play any of the scales you have tabbed above over an Eminor progression and it will all sound like Eminor

[Jacksons Shred]

why not? it's all the same notes. If you were to play the Eminor fragment tabbed above over a GMajor progression, nobody is going to be offended. Only the starting note of the scale and chord progression that it is played over is going to determine its tonality

likewise, you can play any of the scales you have tabbed above over an Eminor progression and it will all sound like Eminor

Well I read that as him saying E Aeolian was equivalent to A Dorian and G Major. I was pointing out the mode he was playing in that tab was E Aeolian. Not A Dorian or GMajor..Shape wise.

[VitaminG]

shapewise it's still all the same. The difference is still only the root of the scale and the progression it's played over. You can play modally only knowing one shape. You just need to be conscious of which note is the root of the shape you're using

Eg. with Grandturk's shape, the 12th fret on the Low E is the root of the Eminor scale. But if he wanted to play that same shape over a GMaj progression it would still work, only the root would now be the 15th fret on the Low E.

Conceptually, the way you've broken it down into the different shapes - with each starting on the root - helps illustrate the relationships between the modes and how each of them sounds. But realistically, every shape you've shown can be played in each of the modes

[Grandturk]

So if you took the shapes that we've got above and considered them a "set" - how many different "sets" of shapes are there?

My point here is - I think I've been trying to learn this stuff incorrectly for a long time.

And yes, I understand that you can move any set of shapes around the fretboard into different keys.

[Shawn Lutz]

Gary, technically since the first note was the E note it is E minor -

Jackson Shred has it correct.

1 - G major
2 - A dorian
3 - B phyrigian
4 - C lydian
5 - D mixolydian
6 - E relative minor
7 - F# locrian

If you know the major scale you know the modes associated with them. Best way to learn them imho is make a backing track of a minute 2 or 3 of a singal pedal tone note and improvise over it and you'll hear the differences. Do this 7 time (for each of the modes). The lightbulb wont go bing if your'e playing B phyrgian over a G pedal tone note. Play the B phyrgan over the B pedal tone to really get the flavor of it.

[VitaminG]

Shawn, that was my point. All of those modes share the same notes, so what really distinguishes them isn't the shape you use or the position on the neck or the starting point of the shape as tabbed out. If you play that B Phrygian shape over a G pedal, you're just playing G Major but in the 7th position. To make it sound like B Phrygian it needs the context of playing over a B pedal (or a progression in B).

Although the shapes as tabbed out start on the root, when you're playing, you're not going to start every lick you play in E Minor with an E.

btw, love your idea for learning the sounds of the modes. I always had trouble coming up with progressions to practice the different modes over and your approach is much more practical. Will have to try that fer sure!

[Grandturk]

Agreed - great idea Shawn.

[Axewielder]

One way to think about it is scales don't really start or stop anywhere. Technically they go on and on forever, down as well as up (or at least as far as your instrument goes lol). They are simply tabbed out in small chunks for us musicians to wrap our heads around.

[Shawn Lutz]

exactly Gary. I don't think in terms of patterns or positions. If you want B phrygian you can play any pattern or any position (in the key of G) just as long as your using B as your homebase note

Modes are usually taught as starting on the root and and going up the octave. So B to B = B Phyrgian mode. Sure when you improvise your not always stopping or starting on the B note....just putting the emphasis on da B note

[Jacksons Shred]

Shawn, that was my point. All of those modes share the same notes, so what really distinguishes them isn't the shape you use or the position on the neck or the starting point of the shape as tabbed out. If you play that B Phrygian shape over a G pedal, you're just playing G Major but in the 7th position. To make it sound like B Phrygian it needs the context of playing over a B pedal (or a progression in B).

Although the shapes as tabbed out start on the root, when you're playing, you're not going to start every lick you play in E Minor with an E.

btw, love your idea for learning the sounds of the modes. I always had trouble coming up with progressions to practice the different modes over and your approach is much more practical. Will have to try that fer sure!

Shawn summed up what I was saying. Your point is valid but it wasn't what I was arguing with.

Also, if you like his idea of learning modes it's pretty similar to Vinnie Moore's method, and his method's great. It's what helped me sort of learn modes. Check it out, it may help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-DbaaI4wc

[shredmonster]

Modes can be confusing for sure.

Here is the way I think about them: A mode is a term.

It is a term for the ROOT note you are basing your playing on in any scale.

Lets take the C major scale so I don't have to type in sharps and flats.

C D E F G H (Ha! Kidding on the H)

C D E F G A B Play an octave C to C - Ionian Mode
Play an octave D to D - Dorian Mode

Both modes have identical notes - the same notes in the C major scale. But you stress a different ROOT note of the C major scale depending upon what chord you are playing in that scale.


So if you are playing the Dorian mode in the key of C major you are stressing the D note and playing a chord in the C major scale that has a D as its root.

Each mode is just stressing a different root note of it's respective scale and hence fitting the chord based on that root note.

So playing A to A using the notes of the C major scale is the minor mode of the C scale. The A aeolian mode. Same notes as every mode in the C major scale just played from A to A - stressing the A note as the root so it has a different sound than stressing the C or D note etc...

Got it so far?

Now the reason the modes have a different sound is a bit more complicated. You are using a different root note for each mode and playing up to the next octave stressing that mode's root note - you are creating a mini scale sort of within the respective overall C scale.
The notes of each mode are the same as every other mode and the same as the ones in the C scale since you are only using notes from the C scale. BUT going up from say A to A - the intervals that those 7 notes in between A to A - where they fall are different than the intervals of say D to D or E to E. The thirds, the 7ths etc... give each mode a different sound because all the intervals are different.