A question about modes

[advennt]

Hey guys, lately I've started playing guitar again, only this time I'm putting more time for theory - especially scales.
I've been reading online this manual (link) and read through this book (link), and there's one thing I'm not quite certain about:
does the mode I use (i.e. Lydian or Ionian) determine the spacings between the notes?
If so, does this means that the normal "Pattern" (as referred to in the aforementioned link) only allows me to play one mode for each note, and if I want to play a different mode for a certain note (i.e. C Dorian instead of C Ionian) I would have to adjust the steps between the notes?

[kalapoka]

hey man I'd like to help but I didn't really understand your question. Also, I suggest you take a look at Frank Gambale's 'Modes: No More Mystery' lesson video. In addition, search out a modes lesson by Satriani over the internet, you will find it, I don't have the link at this moment. These two will help you immensely. I looked at the manual link and felt it was overtly complicating the subject, as most websites/lessons do.

[Jack Napalm]

I think you should go post questions for they guy that wrote it to answer. Kalapoka is right, all though his information is correct, as much as I read, its complicated and seems to teach a lot of patterns in a complicated way. I am not one to teach theory but once I realized I didn't have to learn patterns and learned intervals, scale degrees and how they relate to chords I actually learned to play something.

Learn the major scale and what the intervals and scale degrees are. From there you can learn to play other modes. The thing about modes is that they need context as well to be musical. You can play all the notes of a D Dorian scale but without context I might not know if its D Dorian or C Ionian. Learn the scale degrees and what makes a scale sound like it does and then you can add some musical context to it.

Here is a quick Example:
Major (ionian) Scale: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 - In the Key of C its C, D, E, F, G, A, B
D Dorian:1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 - D, E, F, G, A, B, C
D Ionian: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#

The D Dorian scale is the exact same notes as C Ionian but has two notes different to D Ionian. Those two notes in D Dorian (F, C) that are different from D Ionian are what give D Dorian its color. Accent and highlight those in your licks. Especially the C. The F is what gives the scale its minor sound but is shared with other scales. The C is what stands out in D Dorian.

I am sure someone with more knowledge and better teaching skills of this could add some things to make it easier to understand. The point I am trying to make is get away from patterns. Once you know scale degrees and intervals you can play anywhere on the fretboard in any key. It really is easier. From that you can make up your own patterns.

[Shawn Lutz]

people make this shit confusing and you have to figure out what method works and is easiest for you I will say this, that I dont think in terms of intervals at all or patterns. Just learn major scale in various patterns that cover the entire neck. Once you know the Major Scale you keep the same fingerings just start on diferent notes and follow it up the to octave. What confuses my method of thinking is when folks compare the B phrygian mode to the B Major scale......don't do that, its the G major scale (Phrygian mode is based off the 3rd not of the G scale, play it B note to B note over a B pedal tone...its really just the G major scale that your playing but puttign empahsis on the B note. Using the G scale again as a example, the E minor mode/scale is based off the sixth note of the G major scale, again use the exact same fingering as any G major scale but just start on the 6th step of it and/or put the emphasis on the E notes.

Another thing peole frequently do they tend to NOT play a mode over the correct pedal tone and they never get the light bulb to go bing on how a mode sounds. If you are playing the E minor mode, record an E minor chord and then play the mode over that chorf to get the color of the mode. If you play it over a G major progression it will always resolve to the G major so you wont get the real sound of the mode. Same said about B phrygian, improvise using a B minor chord, not a G major chord. If you lay pedal tones down for each note of the G major scale and then improvise over the appropriate pedal tone you'll "hear it " quicker imho than trying to "read" about it

I hope this hlps even thought I really didnt directly answer your question

[Jack Napalm]

You touched on a great point Shawn. Record yourself playing the scales over chords. That's the way to really hear and understand the relationship. Trying to decipher it off a written page is a good exercise in futility.

[kalapoka]

Agree with Jack & Shawn both, it is very very important to play and understand modes in a musical context. Just playing them up and down the scale won't make any difference. And for more help on this, I really recommend Frank Gambale's vdo. That will help you WAY more than reading and discussing the modes. In addition do get the Satriani lessons, becuz IMO he is the best user of modes in a rock context. In a 1986 session at MI, Steve Vai quotes - "Every one knows the modes, but Satch KNOWS the modes, you know what I mean?"

[advennt]

I've watched Gambale's DVD, and what can I say? Modes are more of a mystery...

For example, Frank says that if you take any major scale and flatten the 2,3,6,7 notes you'll get a phrygian scale. This book I own says the difference between the modes are the spaces between the tones, and if I apply the Phrygian spaces (H,W,W,W,H,W,W) onto a G major, it doesn't fit with Frank's statement, cos I'll get only flat 2,3,6. What am I missing here?

[Shawn Lutz]

I've watched Gambale's DVD, and what can I say? Modes are more of a mystery...

For example, Frank says that if you take any major scale and flatten the 2,3,6,7 notes you'll get a phrygian scale. This book I own says the difference between the modes are the spaces between the tones, and if I apply the Phrygian spaces (H,W,W,W,H,W,W) onto a G major, it doesn't fit with Frank's statement, cos I'll get only flat 2,3,6. What am I missing here?

Both are correct, again there are two ways of looking at it and you have to pick which way it "sticks" for you. Think about it, there are only 12 notes in music andthe major scale and associated modes are 7 notes, 8 if you count the octave, you are going to get common notes from various modes and scales. I don't relate/compare them as a mode different scale how Frank described it by flatening the notes of the major scale, I use the its just the exact same notes of the major scale starting the threid steop of it, I dont think in terms of the B phrygian in relation to the B major scale, I think B Phrygian as it relates to G Major just starting on the 3rde note (B is the third of the G majoe scale) .

You can think in terms of intervals but again why confuse yourself with them? Onece you derive every pattern of the major scale covering the entire fretboard you already know the modes as the patterns are exact fingering, just a different starting point or emphasis note.

it really is nto a mystery its just that there are a few different approaches that all end up in the same place. You haveto pick a method that works for your thought process. As I said in my earlier post, they really make sense when you play them over the pedal tone. So in the key G major, record a G Major chord and improvise over it and you hear the sound or color of the major scale. Do that for each note of the scale, so recored an A minor chord (ii note of the G major scale) and improvize playing the G major scale but simply start the scale on A note...fingering remains identical. Record a B minor chord, improvise with the G majr scale just starting on 3rd note of the G major scale... and that is the B phrygian mode etc etc..

[kalapoka]

I've watched Gambale's DVD, and what can I say? Modes are more of a mystery...

For example, Frank says that if you take any major scale and flatten the 2,3,6,7 notes you'll get a phrygian scale. This book I own says the difference between the modes are the spaces between the tones, and if I apply the Phrygian spaces (H,W,W,W,H,W,W) onto a G major, it doesn't fit with Frank's statement, cos I'll get only flat 2,3,6. What am I missing here?

Let me try to work it out here:

G Major Scale (or G Ionian Mode) - G A B C D E F# G
Spaces - W W H W W W H
Interval Names - R M2 M3 P4 P5 M6 M7 Octave

G Phrygian - - G Ab Bb C D Eb F G
Spaces - H W W W H W W
Interval Names - R b2 b3 P4 P5 b6 b7 Octave

I think you have the last interval wrong. G phrygian will have F as the last note, and that (G to F) is a flat 7 from G.

Hope that helps.

[advennt]

Thanks man, I figured out what I've done wrong.
In order to get a G Phrygian I've used the above formula on the C Major scale instead of the G Major scale, and that's why I've got the last interval wrong.

Now it all makes perfect sense!

[kalapoka]

Thanks man, I figured out what I've done wrong.
In order to get a G Phrygian I've used the above formula on the C Major scale instead of the G Major scale, and that's why I've got the last interval wrong.

Now it all makes perfect sense!

Superb!! Glad to be of help. I will see if I can find my old Satch lesson on my HDD. I will post them here if I can find 'em.
Also, if you are on facebook, here's a vdo of me weaving in and out of all types of modes in the key of E over a E pedal note/drone:

http://www.facebook.com/iamfahim?v=app_2392950137#!/video/video.php?v=10150274819870441

hope it will help you see how i see modes. its just a random take so there are some mistakes, but you'll get the idea.

Cheers!

[Spivonious]

I just wanted to point out that you shouldn't get too hung up on theory. Remember that your ears determine what sounds good, not rules in a book.

[kalapoka]

I just wanted to point out that you shouldn't get too hung up on theory. Remember that your ears determine what sounds good, not rules in a book.

Agreed, focusing on theory should never take more priority than playing what sounds good, however, knowing theory opens up a whole new world of choices that one would not usually make.

[advennt]

Thanks for the help guys, but I have another question about what Frank says in his DVD.
At first he says that you should use a backing rhythm of certain chords in order for the scale to sound "full" or something like that. At first he says to use the 1-4-5 notes of the major scale your playing, but later on he says a few times to use 1-3-5... What's the with this? How is this called professionally so I can Google it up to read more?

[Spivonious]

I would guess that searching for modal harmony would get you some results.

Modes really don't have strict progressions. They're more flavors of a major/minor scale, IMO. For example, playing the D Dorian mode over a Dm7 chord. You could also play a straight minor scale and have it sound fine, but Dorian gives you a different flavor.

In medieval modal music, the chords below modal melodies are usually just the root and fifth. So play a D power chord and shred away on any of the D modes (except Locrian of course, since it's fifth is diminished).

http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/modes-4.html this site has a nice chart you can use to match up chords to modes.