Help improving speed and accuracy

[Cliff]

Hey Anders - any news on that technique video? How are you progressing?

[RR2772]

Well a bit busy but my lefthand is getting used to fast legato and that helps owerall when I apply my fast right hand.

I am still sticking with SM from 1-24 and I do see and feel the benefits of doing just that.

Far beyond the sun sounds a lot better or whatever I want to play. I will try to make an effort in getting a new video up soon.

[ginsambo]

Cliff I think I might have cracked the secret to it. I've been getting into Malmsteen as well (Only these last two weeks, I never listened to him before) and he has helped me out no end in making sense of everything, progressing and pulling all my shyte together.

I tried making a video with the webcam but it comes out as garbled nonsense (What I am saying, not the playing). Also I didn't realise you have to have the amp cranked at 5 in the background to hear over the strings. Still I couldn't stop laughing at myself...I am a complete idiot...lol...I don't know how you can make videos man, it cracks me up, looking at myself and my habits.

So I'II get a video up soon too. In the interim, what has helped me is how I hold the pick. I do angle it, but only for fast picking and I do this by tucking it up between the joint of my thumb and the side of my first finger. This way my thumb muscle (Which is really popeye big) and base of my palm is in line with my pick and parallel to the strings, without having to bend my wrist too much around and the whole combination seems to work effortlessly.

See, the problem I was getting is a lot of pain in my thumb muscle, which was transferred to the base of it and the joint playing with the tip of my thumb holding the pick and first finger holding the pick. I use a lot of pressure and it was pushing the thumb joint backwards against itself and twisting the muscles at the base I guess. It sounds crazy, but I needed something as the pain was affecting my stamina, I was straining something. Basically I think it was caused by my thumb moving and rotating under the stain, which it isn't deisgned to do. It's a good way of holding the pick for me though for faster stuff, as I can seemingly play chuggging or double stop pedal tone rhythms for hours effortlessly whilst still hitting the strings quite hard and you really need that effortlessness with fast picking and steady alternate picking going up the strings became alot easier and consistant.

Try this method, it might work out for you if you have thumbs like mine. What you don't want is any the rotation on the thumb that can happen if you are using the ball of it to hold your pick as this cause strain and of course inaccuracy when picking fast, try and get the pick further down just above or at the thumb joint. It's a lot more of a solid way of picking as you create this kind of solid bone box where nothing is able to move or twist or flex and all the movement comes from your wrist.

This is all on a strat vintage trem bridge BTW. Funnily enough I notice that this is how Malmsteen does it in the earlier days also.

So I think everything is coming together for me at last. I will have to put a vid up as I think I have cracked some important exercises to get your shit together in no time at all, that I worked out to better my own weaknesses, especially with ascending cross string picking. Now nothing I play involving speed picking is really musical to my ears, but does it really matter?

I reckon we all should stick with Malmsteen BTW. For one his stuff sounds very articulate and even and he has a great technique. And for two, he stuff is very musical and melodic and he is very logical and no nonsense in his outlook.

Also look forward to the video RR2772.

[Cliff]

That sounds great. Got to see a video of it . I'm not sure what you're describing for the thumb would work for me - it seems like I'm trying almost the opposite, in that I'm primarily using my thumb to make the picking motion.

I know what you mean about recording yourself. I either get embarrassed or suspicious (wtf are you looking at !?) if I see myself. I've seen other guys who look like they're having sex (so I imagine). But it seems like laughing at yourself is probably the most sane response. At any rate, I've started bringing up another window to hide the movie recorder once I'm sure I'm in camera, just so I don't have to see myself. Regarding volume, I tend to mic up my amp - I have a mic preamp with a usb connector that goes directly to the computer. Recently, I got a practice amp which has a direct output to the computer. I've never tried using the amp raw and the computer's mic. But I don't need or want to speak while I'm playing - no-one needs to hear my Geordie/California accent.

I've got to say, you were right a couple of posts back - my problem *is* with the right hand. I found when picking three notes per string, going from bottom E to top E, I was always stumbling on the transition from D to G. No idea why. It doesn't happen when I go from top E to bottom E. And it doesn't happen if I go from D to top E. Anyway, I've slowed down a bit and been practicing just this. For me, this shows that I need to practice more than just 2-string licks (which I can do at a reasonable speed), since they don't seem to expose the weakness. But I also had/have a left-hand problem, where going up a scale I wasn't placing my fingers precisely in time. I've spent the last couple of evenings working on both of these.

I totally agree about Yngwie. I was never in to him (someone played me, I think, Hiroshima Mon Amour back in the 80s, and the best bit for me was when he slowed down and did some awesome vibrato bend). But since I've started trying to play his stuff, my admiration has gone up ten-fold. And yes, he has great tone and articulation. You're joking when you say speed picking doesn't sound musical? I'm sure it can, though I'm not there yet. As my technique improves at a snail's pace, more and more I'm beginning to wonder: where's the music. I fear that that is going to be far more of a challenge than learning how to play fast.

Anyway, here's a quick vid of where I'm at, or where I'm trying to go. I wasn't properly warmed up, so this is a bit scrappier than I managed last night playing the same stuff. I'm trying to keep the pick motions as small as possible (as I say, by using this scalpel/thumb technique). I'm also trying to pick as lightly as possible - as a prelude to building up speed. In the past this has been a problem where with the odd note I've either dug in too deep and slowed myself down, or missed the string completely, but I feel like I'm getting there now. I've had a theory for a long time that the muscles to switch strings should be different to the ones used to pick across a single string, otherwise you risk breaking up the rhythm. So here I'm using my forearm to switch strings and trying to keep the thumb motions to a minimum. Right at the end you'll see me trying to pick fast, just to show that this scalpel technique can be used for really fast stuff (but my left hand and ability to switch strings is nowhere near up to this yet).

(I'm using a clean sound because I find this is the best way to hear if the two hands are in sync and the notes are properly articulated. I'm also finding, like you said a few posts back, that when you add distortion it's very hard to get a pleasing tone.)

[ginsambo]

Yeah you are practicing your weakpoints, that is exactly what the road to improvement is about.

BTW - You hold the pick EXACTLY like me, EXCEPT, instead of curling my thumb over to meet the pick, my thumb is straight. Try the same picking but with your thumb extended, with the pick at the same position, relative to your first finger, with the pick against the back of the joint of you thumb, or just beyond it. Honestly it won't feel that strange. I suspect what it might be at speed is that your picking box (Finger and thumb) isn't totally solid and is flexing, which means you are missing the picks. Also keep your wrist more in line with your arm for faster picks, so the pick is at more of an angle, almost 80 degrees even to the strings and then you want just tiny, effortless, fractional shakey movements with your wrist and move your arm up and down with your palm anchored on the bridge (Like you said earlier..lol) to meet the strings.

It looks painful actually the way you curl your thumb over. But think about it like this, try moving your pick position and picking box by attacking it vigorously with your other left hand and your thumb straightens out pretty easily - it's not solid and it's no good, this is probably what is happening when you attack the strings at speed. When you hold the pick with your thumb straight, lower down your thumb, behind the knuckle joint, it is a totally rigid unit that cannot be broken.

I also like my way more, because you can turn the pick attack up, or down, depending on how much distortion you have and it is effortless.

[ginsambo]

Yeah I said MY picking doesn't sound that musical. It's OK but I'm blues based and that is where my heart is, weird bends and odd notes. The Malmsteen thing, although great, is a bit of a one trick pony and that classical harmonic minor/phygrian stuff doesn't translate that well to a distorted electric guitar, just in my opinion of course, but it sounds better on a violin.

I do think Malmsteen is especially good however because of his very common sense approach. For example, I always had a problem learning harmonic minor all over the neck, because unlike natural minor and major, it has that large interval in it, especially different to play fluidly in a single static position on the board. But Malmsteen tells it how it is, play it on one string fluently and then working out the rest of the strings is basic logic. Now I can rip through a couple of patterns in harmonic minor down the strings and up and down the board. He cuts through the bullshit and helps you learn stuff the simple way.

On the down side, I now realise that those bends I was playing and loving so much, the ones that Demartini stole and adopted off of Lynch are harmonic minor semi tone bends, which I kind of knew, but now I think of them as such, which is sad. I also realise where the Randy Rhoads arpegios come from and how easy they are to construct. It has kind of taken away some of the magic from it for me. My fear is that too much of it might lock me into it.

[Cliff]

I've spent all day trying to improve this, experimenting with different picking angles, hand positions etc. I'm still not sure what's going to work out best for me, but at the moment I'm still trying to use the thumb muscle to move the pick rather than the wrist. Here's what I achieved:

Like you, one thing that really struck me about Malmsteen was the way he'd play very horizontally, moving up and down a single string. A long time ago I read a tutorial by Joe Satriani that mentioned this approach, but I forget it pretty quickly (I wasn't ready for it anyway). I find switching strings a bit of a challenge with the right hand, but this position shifting style on a single string is instead challenging for the left hand .

I think with a bit of stretching it's possible to play harmonic minor in a static position, at most you have to stretch five frets rather than four, but I don't practice this as much as I'd like. I know what you mean about getting too into it: it's a very distinctive sound. I'm not very familiar with DeMartini and Lynch's style - I guess they came along about when I stopped listening to new music - but it's interesting what you say about the semi-tone bends. I like to do these a lot when I'm improvising. Takes you out of that pentatonic cliche (which of course is just as distinctive as harmonic minor, but more common so therefore more acceptable).

If you're fast picking doesn't sound musical, I'm sure it's just a matter of working to get a tone you're happy with and that fits with the rest of what you're doing (sorry if I'm stating the obvious). For me, it feels like my picking is better than my hammer-ons/pull-offs, which I'm still trying to make sounds slightly better than awful.

[ginsambo]

RE: HARMONIC MINOR AND MALMSTEENY STUFF:

I'II have to show you a video cliff, I don't stretch anything on harmonic minor unless you I am playing a lick with pulloffs incorporating 3-2-1 kind of stuff. This is a direct result of the malmsteen (And Gilbert) advised beauty of it, you only have to learn the pattern between two strings really and repeat it, the same as if you are paying anything down or up an octave, same as if you
are playing any other scale up an octave. So for A harmonic minor in a fast run, I'd go:

E-------------------------------------------------10-12-13
B------------------------------------9-10-12-13
G----------------------------7-9-10
D------------------6-7-9-10
A-----------5-7-8
E----5-7-8

I slide down using my first finger, after using my second and third or pinky for a descending 4 note run on the same string or slide up my third finger for an ascending run or pattern, the only exception is playing a repeated four note lick on the same string, where I always slide using my third finger.

I always used to think harmonic minor was about 5-7-8, 5-7-8, 6-7, 4-5-7, 5-6-9, 5-7-8 in the single position at the fifth fret in the V position and kind of abandoned fretboard navigation to do with it as that single position is a bit awkward. Until now it is the last kind of scale/mode type thing I have left to navigate.

Now it's pretty simple as wherever I start on an A on the board, or frm any interval, I can link the intermediate frets with notes I have memorized from the single string octave scale and this familarity is key to playing fast. When doing patterns or a straight scale, there are a couple of changes in there that you need to work out with your left hand fretting for how to change fast between the B and G strings as well as any other two parallel strings and you are away. This is the way of thinking that Malmsteen is essentially advocating.

Also when starting an ascending pattern in A harm Minor I would start 7-4 (Low E) but with natural minor I would start 8-5 (E).

EG: One kind of ascending pattern.

A -------------------5-----5-7---5-7-8....etc
E 7-4-5-7-8-5-7-8---7-8-----8

Always sliding my first finger between the first and second notes of any four note per string phrase, here it would be between 4th and 5th frets on the low E.


When working say a particular harmonic minor diminished? (I don't know TBH?) arpegio, I would start at 7-4 (High E), then work up on the same string keeping the interval the same:

(High) E-----10-7----13-10----16-13----19-16......and just simply practice the fuck out of that to get the position changes co-ordinated at speed.

Once you have those position changes mastered accurately at speed, you can then apply this to more strings, using the same selected interval notes and carry the same thing up and down the neck in the same positions as your single string:

-----7-4----
---------6---

Or use three strings with the same notes:
-----7-4----
---------6--
-----------7

Or a sweep

-----7-4-------4
---------6---6
-----------7-

Again, applying all this to repeat at the positions you've learnt with a single string arpegio above up and down at speed. when you are pulling off single sweeps in each position and moving positions rapidly you are getting there. It's all fairly basic common sense and is the stuff I pulled out of that Malmsteen vid that was on here. Although I can't sweep that well personally.

Or with the arpegios, you can slide and incorporate notes into one phrase from sliding positions, it's pretty endless, it's common sense and ther is no real hardship to it, other than practice and you start with the basic patterns on a SINGLE string.

Once you learn as many different patterns or different accented patterns as you can, up and down, your ears will soon be able to pick out and translate notes from other players fast stuff relatively easily.

As I said and described, a few posts back, my favorite ascending pattern is used in Penn State's Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings. I think that one is natural minor, I forget. But it sounds good at hyperspeed anyway.

Another thing malmsteen does in that or another vid, that is useful for practicing your left hand dexterity/board shape/changing strings memory down the octaves, in A harmonic minor is a repeated interval skipping thing:

E----13-10-12-13-12-10-
B---------------------------12-9-10-12-10-9-
G-----------------------------------------------10-7-9-10-9-7-
D----------------------------------------------------------------9-6-7-9-7-6-
A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------8-5-7-8-7-5-
E----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------7-4-5-7-5-4

Or he might use different intervals I forget:


E----13-10-12-13-12-10-
A---------------------------15-12-13-15-13-12

Then you can try string skipping with octaves with using patterns from the A harmonic scale.

Anyway, the idea is you get playing fast quite quick and learn to navigate quickly. Harmonic minor is good, because it sounds clean, malmsteeny and motivates you. Changing the accent on patterns or creating different interval patterns gets easier once you can play a few. Which is not what you would expect, as logic would state that your muscle memory gets in the way of playing new patterns fast, but I've found that that just isn't the case in reality as you find you start learning new ones exponentially, once you get the basics up to speed and your fingers moving in a co-ordinated way.

Learn all this stuff and you realise that Malmsteen doesn't actually play that fast.

It's not the tone Cliff! It's honestly that I don't think I like the sound of fast classical style picking on distorted electric guitars and also I don't have any imagination for the classical style chord and key changes as I don't listen to that much kind of stuff. Malmsteen does it best though IMO and if I had to listen to it back to back, I would choose his stuff as he is the King of it.

[ginsambo]

RE STRING CHANGING AND WRIST POSITION

Again, if I have a problem with anything in a pattern, whether it be changing strings or sliding my finger, playing four noted on one and three on the other etc. I will just practice that again and again until I nail it to infinity with my eyes closed, as that is the weak point. I am still working on that 13-10-12-13-12-10 pattern for my left hand a bit. But again one door open a whole load of other avenues, practicing this one lick made the I'm insane solo way more accurate for me.

With Demartini's I'm insane solo, I can play it to speed (Juuuust). but found myself doing this because of muscle memory during the panic of trying to fit the notes in going up the board:

E--------5-7-8-5-7-8-----11-8-10----8-10-----13-10-12-(10)---10-12----15-12-14-(12)---12-14......etc.
B-5-7-8-----------------------------12---------------------------14---------------------------16

instead of this:

E--------5-7-8-5-7-8-----11-8-10----8-10-----13-10-12---10-12----15-12-14----12-14......etc.
B-5-7-8-----------------------------12---------------------14----------------------16

That extra note multiplied by about five or six was losing me the a lot of time on it completely! I don't know if that TAB is note accurate, but it's more or less, the pattern fingering is ok though and you get the idea, practicing tiny chunks, where your weaknesses lie, rather than the whole thing.


If you are stumbling on picking transition from the D to G strings try something out of the A harmonic minor scale above and get it until you can rip the shit out of it.

Example:

G------------7
D----7-9-10--10-9....etc repeated. Start with a downpick and catch the G strig with an uppick.

Or:

G-----------7-9-10-9-7
D---7-9-10-------------10-9-7-9-10...repeated as fast as you can with straight alternate picking, starting with a down and catching the G with an upstroke.

Or:

G-----------5------......repeated
D----6-7-9---9-7-6

And then make something Malmsteeny up with a repeated phrase over two octaves:

G------------5
D----(6-7-9---9-7)---------6---
A--------------------(5-7-8---8-7)--------3
E------------------------------------(4-5-7--7-5)

See, the thing is, you want to try and practice quick position changes as well as fingering, as well as picking.

Also when you have your wrist bent slightly and angled more parallel, toward the line of the strings, away from your arm, it takes ALOT more movement to get that up pick located on the next string.

It takes far less movement when your wrist it is inline with your arm and the pick is at an angle to the strings.

When learning with an angled wrist technique, which is the way I normally play, I found that this movement is compensated for by wrist, as opposed to freely moving your arm and this in itself causes picking irregularities changing strings and stress.

Where as the wrist movement with your wrist inline is minimized to the smallest flutter, and becomes no more changing string to fly picking on the same string. Also, because your physcially have to rely on slight arm movement to change strings with thios method, I found that I don't think conciously think about moving your arm and so that the whole exercise of changing strings became more smooth and effortless.

Of course when you have your arm locked in, you can go back to having a more angled wrist technique, but while you are learning string changing picking co-ordination, which is essentially calibrating in your forearm movement, it is easier if you use your wrist straight and inline with your arm for the faster picking stuff. I tend to straighten up my wrist when I'm and picking fast, where as normally I don't.

See, there are many things to co-ordinate and calibrate with muscle memory with regard to picking fast, that you just want to reduce those kind of variables down to as few as possible until you have them calibrated to makes things easier on yourself, if that makes any sense?

[ginsambo]

RE LEFT HAND DEXTERITY AND CO-ORDINATION

And of course, you want to be able to finger the scale or whatever, ascending or descending, loudly and fast with a legato style with no picking at all ideally, or just one pick on each string from the right hand.This helps prove to yourself that your left hand fretting and timing co-ordination are completely locked in before attempting to pick everything, because naturally, some fingers want to fret notes faster than others and some fingers want to fret more loudly than others. You want to aim for something that is smooth and equal across the board. As well as locking in fingering timings and building strength, this helps keep your fingers closer to the board and more ready for action whilst fingering notes more assertively and loudly from small movements. If this feels strange or you can't do it at speed, then it will never work at speed with picking either.


Try playing your scale by just picking the first note and not using the right hand at all, you should be able to get all the timings correct and just as important the loudness of the notes the same, even when hammering on with your first or fourth finger.

This is definitely how I progressed before even attempting fast picking.

You don't have to do it, just sometimes it good to practoce between picking exercises.

You want to relax your left hand and really get a feel for the pulse of the notes, to make sure your timing is right and loudness is equal, especially when hammering on with your first finger on the next string up and try not to pick anything at all. This is the secret to smoothing it out I think.Can't belive I have just rattled out a page of posts and then gone back and given them title....very sad!

Right enough coffee!


Hee hee, I've just looked back at the advice in the previous posts, the guitar progressions and a vision of the future occurred to me.

In ten years time, I'II still be rattling off 10 page essays of pontificational waffle and repetitive tabs of stuff that has bascially been reiterated or explained in one form or another, as a consensus, by everyone in this thread, that everyone ignores. Anders will probably be playing for some band somewhere as a pro musician and ripping it up and Cliff, you'll have this fuck off great 12 foot long, $300,000 guitar with explosions and fireworks and rhino horns coming out of it, surrounded by smoke in your picking exercise videos.

[ginsambo]

Here is another similar Malmsteen classical thing u could try to keep your picking together to keep u motivated. It is quite easy to up to a million miles an hour and sound good and uses simply 1,2,3 fingerings. Again it's more of a test of fast and accurate position changes really.

I just figured out what he meant by 'uh But alternating'. lol. Yeah I get it now. It's in D harmonic minor, but you can play it in A if you use the B string instead.

E------(15-18-17-15)-(13-17-15-13)-(15-18-17-15)-(12-15-13-12)-(13-17-15-13)-(10-13-12-10)-(12-15-13-12)-(9-12-10-9)-10
B
G
D
A
E

As he explains..you can go up as well:


E------(9-12-10-9)-(10-13-12-10)-(9-12-10-9)-(12-15-13-12)-(10-13-12-10)-(13-17-15-13)-(12-15-13-12)-(15-18-17-15)-(13-17-15-13)-(15-18-17-15)-17

This is what he means when he goes about about playing stuff on one string. Working out an alternating pattern like that off the cuff what take a bit of imagination and fingerwork in a single position. But on one string, it's fairly straight forward. Once you have it on one string, you can then try and transpose it to a couple of positions, whilst changing strings.

I don't know everything I end up practicing that is Malmsteeny ends up sounding like some traditional Russian dance music....

Anyway, the point is, that if you get these patterns up to speed, you will be concentrating so much on making the position changes accurately that hopefully, your picking technique will have sorted itself out by itself. Alot of it is just building confidence in playing the tones at speed. Once you get a thing like this above, it's amazing what else it pulls out of you, as it does develop your ears a bit too for speed.

[ginsambo]

And you can use that same pattern without the alternating parts going down the A harmonic minor scale (Imagining Cossacks dancing):

E----10-13-12-10----12-10--------10
B-------------------13--------13-12---13-12-10-13-12-10-9-12-10-9----10-9------9-
G--------------------------------------------------------------------------10------10-9---10-9-7-10-9-7----9-7------7-
D------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------10-----10-9--10-9-7-10-9-7-6-
A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E

D----9-7-6---7-6------6-
A-----------8-----8-7---8-7-5-8-7-5---7-5-----5-
E---------------------------------------8-----8-7---8-7-5

Play the same pattern, without the first note and suddenly the accent has changed and the pattern sounds completely different and much more conventional:

E----13-12-10----12-10--------10
B---------------13--------13-12---13-12-10-13-12-10-9-12-10-9----10-9------9-
G----------------------------------------------------------------------10------10-9---10-9-7-10-9-7----9-7------7-
D--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------10-----10-9--10-9-7-10-9-7-6--
A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E

D----9-7-6---7-6------6-
A-----------8-----8-7---8-7-5-8-7-5---7-5-----5-
E---------------------------------------8-----8-7---8-7-5-(5)

All of the above are in groups of four notes in the same pattern, but the groups change which changes the accents.

[ginsambo]

I'm not very familiar with DeMartini and Lynch's style - I guess they came along about when I stopped listening to new music.

[Cliff]

Yeah, I know. It *is* funny . Maybe I should check these guys out...

Thanks for all the advice. There's too much for me here to take on board all in one go. But I've just spent a few hours playing the scale, first using legato until it's comfortable, then using picking. I eventually reached a point where it seemed like I couldn't pick fast enough to keep up, but by then it's difficult for me to say for certain that each note in the legato was properly in time.

I'll try some of the single string ideas too. I do practice a couple similar to these already, but I'm still finding my speed sticks at around the 120bpm mark when playing 4s.

At this rate, I think your nightmare vision of the future is spot on.

[ginsambo]

It's OK, I'm just jealous. Demartini is way ahead of Malmsteen in terms of what I value as sacred. You should check the single string Malmsteen lick above if nothing else. I guarantee it will pull your shit together. Interestingly I had a go on the webcam, whenever I trip up going down the strings, I notice my thumb is flexing, compensating for my arm not moving away fluidly. So like most of these things, I think there is very often a simple remedy. provide your left hand is up to speed.