Curious about your Phrasing techniques

[Guest]

Hi JCFers.

I have a little question here... I'm just curious about how y'all approach phrasing. This is one technique that I feel I am not entirely understanding. I keep getting so many different answers, one buddy has one suggestion and definition, my teacher has another, another teacher an entirely different approach.
I get the whole solo-ing with a scale idea... that is no problem.
I think what I am looking to understand is phrasing with chords. Take open C for example... the only way I understand to phrase with this chord is to arpeggiate it in different patterns. Is this phrasing?
I think I'm confused. [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

Any light you can shed, or resources you can point me to that better explain this I would be most grateful! [img]/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

Ciao,
Em

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

Try looking at it as punctuation or proper grammar in written or spoken language. Could you read a novel without any paragraphs?

i.e.

no phrasing
youwouldn'trunletterswordsandsentencesalltogetherw ithoutanypunctuationgrammarorstartingandstoppingpo intswouldyou

Phrasing

you wouldn't run letters, words and sentences al together without any punctuation, grammar or starting and stopping points would you?

Horn players can phrase very well because they have to stop to inhale where guitarists can blend everything together. You have to come up for air.

[guitarsjb]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

Thanks Shawn, that helped clear it up for me too.

[Emthrax]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

I understand that concept, Shawn, yes, that makes sense, thank you! But I have no problem there.

What I don't understand is if phrasing is the same thing as soloing, if there really is certain technique, or if you just make it up as you go along... free thought, i.e. soloing (using scale forms) or playing the melody (in place of a vocalist providing melody).. or maybe its all of it.
Does that make sense?
And if arpeggiating your chords is the same thing as phrasing, or can be used as such... then... man... I dunno.

I'm suspecting that the word "phrasing" is loosely defined and lumped as a name for a category that has several ideas of how you can express your musical thought.

What I am looking for is actual technique, if there is one.
Basically I'm looking for someone to committ to a definition of technique because I get different answers from people.
Does this make sense? [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

I heard what was supposed to be an example of phrasing somewheres... basically it explained that instead of strumming say... C, G, A... you play a variation of these three chords using some sort of scale form (I don't remember what this was about). It sounded the same overall (the idea), but it was more expressive. Each note was played and it reminded me of arpeggios, but not quite.

I'm still stumped. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Em

P.S. Basically- I understand the concept, just not how you actually do it.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

To me solos are made up of a series of phrases licks, riffs and whatnot, a series of starting and stoping points within a solo. Listen to this solo I did and see if you can pick out where they start and stop. I did this one more so with the beat and underlying chord change. I really don't think in terms of phrasing, it just comes and the music dictates what I play. I don't look at it as a technique but more so as flow.

this was a JCF backing track that DM made and I just improvised over it.

http://shawnlutz.com/Lutz_JCF_2.mp3

[VitaminG]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

Em, phrasing isn't a guitar technique. It's about musical flow and making your lines musically interesting by varying the rhythm and length of notes, and using rests, moments of silence, to add "air" to your music.

As Shawn said, horn players are naturally better at phrasing than guitarists, because they have to break up their lines as they pause for air, to inhale. Guitarists can play never-ending torrents of sixteenth notes with little consideration for making it musically or rhythmically interesting.

Check out some trumpet or sax solos to hear what Shawn's talking about.

[Emthrax]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

Shawn, that was beautiful! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think that you and G are saying the same thing... that "phrasing" does not actually refer to a technique.

I completely understand what both of you are saying here, that is how I understood it myself. I just thought there was some particular WAY (as in technique) you phrased (is that a word? haha!), if that makes sense. Kinda like how in order to play a galloping rhythm you can palm mute your strings and you follow a particular rhythm pattern. I was thinking that in phrasing there was some sort of pattern you follow... or something to that effect.

I suppose what confused me is at guitar instruction sites and in my books there is reference to particular techniques as "phrasing" and they are all different. What I am thinking that that means now (how the actual word is used) is that you can use these techniques IN your phrasing... kinda like how you would use adjectives in your sentences, and like you already mentioned, Shawn, punctuation.

If phrasing just refers to your musical thought, then I am good to go and can carry on. [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Thanks a bunch!

Em

[Number Of The Priest]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

Writing guitar solos and vocal lines are THE most difficult things for me to do. Trying to get the notes in patterns that actually mean something as a melody has been my toughest task so far. Lately I've just been sticking to building my technique so that I can add new tricks and tools to incorporate in melody writing.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

Thanks Em! and you are right that Gary and I were basically saying the same things but he just explained it a lot better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[VitaminG]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

well, thanks Shawn. I didn't think I did that good of a job explaining it. Just tried to elaborate a little on your initial post. I'm glad if my post helped in that regard.

I just thought of another way to look at it.
Try applying some of the techniques that a good public speaker uses, a lot of them transfer easily to guitar.

Use repetition (musical motifs) to engage your listener and solidify the idea you're trying to convey. Politicians & world leaders use this one all the time. Check out MLK's I Have A Dream speech.
Limit yourself to a few key points, or ideas. Use less, rather than more, words (notes) to get your point across. Don't meander, and don't carry on with a lot of necessary blather (wanking). Don't throw every trick in your bag at your audience in one go.
Pause. Use silence to allow your audience to digest, to reflect and think.

Breathe. Think about how long a horn player could play the lick before they have to stop to inhale

Of course, I feel advantaged when it comes to naturally pausing in my playing. My endurance is so poor, I can't play the endless streams of notes for long before my timing and coordination all go out the window. I really should practice more. But they say, those that can't do, teach. Maybe I should teach. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[jjw]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

EM-phrasing is like talking mate,you need expression or you sound boring like a robot.
Dont forget to add dynamcs to your playing.Adjusting the volume of the note you strike,how you strike,with pick or fingers,the speed,ect,ect
If you say your playing over that C/G/A progression(and the key is Gmajor)then spend a lot of time using the natural minor scale up a 6th(Emin).Start off with bluesy pent licks,then add the scale notes.Diatonic arps can be played next and dimished arps and scales.Add cromatics to the scales as passing tones when you get used to it,just target strong chord notes over the changes to keep it sounding musical.Also try perhaps other scales.Over dominant chords use Harmonic Minor 5th mode(or as i say heavy metal 5),you still have the major 3rd and minor 7th but also a dark flat2.Or drop down a tone on a Minor chord and play a whole tone scale-now thats dark mate and can add colour to phrasing.

[Wayniac]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

To add to the talking example - just think of "dynamics" as part of your phrasing too. When you are excited or trying to stress a point, your voice may get lower or grittier. You do not always speak monotone. If 2 (or more) people are speaking , the rhythm of the conversation changes. When playing - it is the same - dig in on notes, don't always do triplets... fours, etc are good as well. That is what you are trying to do, right ? - convey a message w/out words.
For the short time I took lessons from Frank Aresti, he stressed the emotional side of playing. He would pop open a page in a magazine, then say "play how that makes you feel". He expected you to know your scales & mechanics, but did not really want to hear a straight scale when you were expressing yourself. Sometimes it was just a disjointed or dissonant sounding chord, other times it could have been an arpegiated chord or a lick.
So if the part calls for an angry feel, get yourself in that mindset - if it takes envisioning all red lights on you, or a lava flow, or just remembering a bad experience, then feed off of that. That should tell you how it should be phrased - if you want to scream - INTENSE lead - if you just close down, then the lead should be "held back" with minor tones to it.
As far as chord Phrasing, perhaps he is referring to how you pick chrod patterns - are you on top of the beat, or do you lay back a bit? Do you do all open chords, or do you mute and arpeggiate as well? Are they all 1/4 notes, or do you mix it up (dotted half, etc). Does the phrase breathe, or do all progressions have the same feel (ie 1/4 note patterns at 120 bpm, etc)
Dunno if that helped or confused things even more.

[Emthrax]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

I'm hearin' ya loud and clear over here, people. Thanks so much for your thoughts and inputs! Y'all rule. [img]/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

Em

[Outlander]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

They pretty much covered it Em.
Phrasing= expression of musical ideas,happy,sad,light,hard heavy,aggresive etc. etc.use differant phrases or attitudes to build or structure a solo.Usually starting out slower and building to a crescendo or faster and more aggresive at the end to complete a musical statement.
You're probably doing it all ready.

[shredmonster]

Re: Curious about your Phrasing techniques

You know there are guitarists out there that have supposedly taken shredding to the next level by using 4 fingers and 4 note run technique at incredibly high speeds.

But when I listen to these players - they don't sound musical to me. No phrasing, not very good vibrato - just all speed and running the notes together or playing from one arpeggio to the next in a never ending flow of blind speed.

Then I listen to a guy like Michael Schenker.

When its all said and done at the end of the day I would rather listen to a style like Michael Schenker - excellent phrasing, use of dynamics, tone and clarity. Bret Garsed is another dynamic player.

Bottom line is their playing is interesting.

When I hear one of these new age shredders I get bored after 2 or 3 minutes because it is not musical and not interesting in my opinion.
Faster does not mean better - I think speed has its place but is one tool in an arena of many tools compirsing total technique.