Modes

[Deneb]

Someone explain this to me.
I was under the understanding, that the modes were just the same notes of a scale, just starting and ending on a different note.

For example,

C Ionian= C D E F G A B C
D Dorian= D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian=E F G A B C D E

Okay, you get the idea.

Now, my teacher said that E Harmonic Minor, is the same as B Phrygian.

I didn't notice this until I got home, but if I was to be playing B Phrygian, I believe I would be playing in G major.

Phrygian is the 3rd mode of the scale tone, and the 3rd of G major is B
G A B C D E F# G

So B Phrygian (I would guess) would be B C D E F# G A B

I've never been a modal player, since like I said, the modes are just starting and ending on different notes. I've never said D Dorian, I would say C major D-D.

Maybe I messed up my notes, but am wondering if someone knows what I'm talking about. I'm an accomplished player, as I've been playing for 11 years. I can play most of anything I want, but the downside is, I'm not a theory genius. I've got a good handle on things, and I'm learning the theory (I just started lessons not too terribly long ago, 6 or so months). I've been working on it, but the thing is, we're working on modes, and I won't have a chance to ask him until Friday, and I don't want to waste all week.

[blindmuddy]

Re: Modes

Harmonic minor is not the same it is an altered scale. It doesnt come from the major scale

[blindmuddy]

Re: Modes

E harmonic minor is close though, you would have a D# instead of D. Other than that its the same as B Phrygian. It's like the major scale with a flat3 and flat 6

[Endrik]

Re: Modes

Harmonic minor is teh same as Phrygian dominant (3-rd note raised in the phrygian scale)

[blindmuddy]

Re: Modes

[ QUOTE ]
Harmonic minor is teh same as Phrygian dominant (3-rd note raised in the phrygian scale)

[/ QUOTE ]
Phrygian Dominant is actually the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale. wich is like d harmonic minor played over an A chord. Sounds really cool

[Endrik]

Re: Modes

harmonic minor and phrygian dominant..hmmmm..Yngwie
Let's unleash the fury \m/

[KevinDguitar]

Re: Modes

Like everyone has stated here above...E Harmonic Minor is close enough to B Phrygian..but that half step makes all the difference in the world. E minor : e f g a b c d e...E Harmonic minor: e f g a c b D# e...the 7th is raise/sharped..if you start this on the fifth (b), that would give you Phrygian Dominant (the flamenco scale). Raising the seventh makes for a darker more theatrical sounding scale.
A student once asked me, how do I keep all of it straight in my head while running up and down the neck through the various positions and modes...you know, like passing from position 1 Aeolian, to say A (fifth position) Dorian in E minor..I had to explain to them that when running the neck unless writing something with a particular mode in mind...its all just E minor to me.
The modes are like a counting game..basic math.

[kmanick]

Re: Modes

Definitely pick up Frank Gambales's "Modes Mystery No More " DVD
He gives you the "Correct" formulas for unraveling what mode
you are in and gives you tons of examples. this one DVD has
opened my eyes more theory wise than any other I've ever watched.
A definite must have [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Modes

You are right but one should not confuse the matter any further by associating the harmonic minor to any mode. Especially for someone just learning the modes. Learn and understand (and apply) the modes associated with the major scale first before moving on to other scales. Close in terms is a stupid term imho, altering one note of any scale makes close but takes on a totally different personality.

[Deneb]

Re: Modes

[ QUOTE ]
E minor : e f g a b c d e...E Harmonic minor: e f g a c b D# e

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought E minor, was the same as G major, resulting in
G A B C D E F# G, or in terms of E Minor, it would be
E F# G A B C D E.

Harmonic minor would be, E F# G A B C D# E, with the raised 7th.

OKay, from what it sounds, I was right, and my teacher was right, and I'll explain how.

I was reviewing my notes this morning, and what is wrote,
"E Harmonic minor=B Phrygian DOMINANT" (he actually has dominant wrote big, as if, to get the point across :P )

So, this is my understanding, and maybe you can tell me if this is right.

G Major-G A B D E F# G
B Phrygian-B C D E F# G A B
B Phrygian dominant (off of the 5th of the harmonic minor scale)-B C D# E F# G A B

Is this correct?

Sorry for sounding stupid. Like I said, I can play pretty much anything I want, but I wanted to open that door just a little farther, with some music theory. I want to be able to be a song writer, not only with my guitar, but with music in my head, and have a good ground to start with. I understand you don't need to play by the books all the time, but to me I look at music theory as a tool, and if I have more tools, I can do more jobs. Thank you for your help.

[kmanick]

Re: Modes

Gambales DVD explains just this. for example play something like Satrianis flying in a Blue Dream. that song is mostly
C Lydian. when in C Lydian you are actually playing a G Major scale.
And he shows you the formulas for figuring this stuff out and examples, so you can start to hear the
modes. Here's another example : Ratt You're in Love. D mixolydian with a Crossover to D natural minor
and then back to the D Mixolydian, one of Warrens favorite combos, it let's you play off of the major 3rd
of the root when in Mixolydian and the sharp 5th when in the minor.
it's a great combination that he plays against really well. He does basiclly the same thing in "Lay It Down" as well. [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[thetroy]

Re: Modes

[ QUOTE ]
So, this is my understanding, and maybe you can tell me if this is right.

G Major-G A B D E F# G
B Phrygian-B C D E F# G A B
B Phrygian dominant (off of the 5th of the harmonic minor scale)-B C D# E F# G A B

Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You've got it just fine. The hard part is figuring all of that out instantly while you're playing.

[KevinDguitar]

Re: Modes

Yep! You got it!!! ..I apologize for my "blonde typonese"..I forgot to sharp the "F"...either too much blonde or not enough coffee...hey, when you're a single dad with 3 kids living with you..it can happen..LOL!!!! Sometimes its easier to not get bogged down so much in proper names/terminology for "this and that" in the beginning..and better to get the sound or "flavor" of a particular chord or mode/scale in your head..I find knowing its "flavor" will help you use it to actually create with. To de-mystify most of the whole theory thing..think of it as a big counting game..basic addtion or division that most of us have been doing since around the third or fourth grade.
The Major 2nd, 3rd, 4th..etc....and then harmony is just like a game of leap frog...say you have E minor: e f# g a b c d and "e" is the 1 or root..so if you wanted a harmony or a third..take "e" and leap over the second not to the third note in line..so the harmony would be "e" and "g"..just a counting game of leap frog, using "e" as 1 and then looking for the 3rd ("g")..using this method you could harmonize the entire scale in thirds.
Hope this helps and not confuse.
God Bless,
Kevin

[jgcable]

Re: Modes

hmm... That is way too much theory and math for me. Maybe they should make guitars with slide rule calculators built into them. Do you think that Warren was thinking about: D mixolydian with a Crossover to D natural minor and then back to the D Mixolydian, it let's you play off of the major 3rd when he wrote the solo in You're in Love?
Nah... My guess is that he grabbed a Charvel, plugged it into an amp, turned it way up and started playing.
Don't flame me on this. I can back up my theory with 2 words... Frank Zappa. There have been hundreds of players transposing and applying theory to his recorded works yet he winged just about everything he ever played. If you asked him what mode or scale or interval or shape he was playing he generally didn't know or care. Thank god that Steve Vai came along or there would be no Zappa tab at all.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Modes

I agree jg. Although I consider myself fairly well versed in scale and modes I don't over anal-yze it. That is why I said in my first post that folks should learn to apply the modes or associate the sound of them. I never think too much when I improvise, just go for it; if it sounds good and gets you there why analyze it to the 10th degree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]