How do you guys write songs?

[atomic charvel guy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Reverend Timmy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

Charvelguy,man,you hit the nail on the head!I have played with guys that have had theory and blah,blah,blah out the wazoo and granted,above average players.But none of them had feel and enough presence to actually add input to the songwriting process.You could bounce ideas off them,but most were too self involved to care.I'm not saying all "schooled" players are that way,just my experience.My best songs and lyrics come to me in the morning , for some reason.I also write every phrase and sentence down that I think would fit in a song.How many times have you caught yourself saying"Hey,that sounds like a song!"...Sorry for the long post.............

[charvelguy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

hey man... post away, don't be shy....a BB is for discussion on opinion. Morning has always been a good creative time for me as well...
What you said is very true and has been relayed to me by one guy whose one of the best in our local area..Jeff Loven.
(who won the international Kahler competition in '87 with Vai, Morse and EVH as judges)

His opinion is that theory can and will help you, but also in the same respect some guys get bogged down in the detail of analysis. If we were all machines loaded with theory and all things being eqaul, I think things would be very boring. There is an element of margin for the unknown, the hit n miss and the subconcious being a creative part of your mind, heart & soul in itself. I suppose it could be a right brain left brain argument..but there is a definite plus to the creative process within us and the unknown outside of the black n white of theory that makes music a wonderful thing. Course, now one could circle back to the question...what's music?

[charvelguy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

..adding on here since the edit feature is being 'difficult'
Is it the mechanics and the structure of format within the black n white of the rules or is it something from within you as a human who expresses everything from animal to intricate point counterpoint mathmatical precision?
It's both and so much more I think IMO.

Just imagine that first guy who painted his tribal drum in blood or covered it animal print skin was umpteen thousand of years ago.... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

His successor has to go thru a process taking another thousand upon thousands of years for guys named Thaddeus Cahill, Leo Fender, Les Paul & Jim Marshall to happen along.

[Reverend Timmy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

Very well put.I have read articles about Lynch in the studio and during breaks in the recording process,he would bounce ideas off his guitar teacher.We all have our own likes and dislikes.I'll take a sloppy,sugary Jimmy Page solo over any technically proficient,metronome perfect,no feeling solo any day of the week.George Lynch with a guitar teacher!Define irony [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]..................

[charvelguy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

Randy Rhoads often had a instructor for classical and from what I've read often times bounced ideas off players he would seek while he was on the road, whether they were in a club or in a teacher/student or visa versa format.

[charvelguy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

[ QUOTE ]
I knew a lot of people would disagree here and thats fine.

But you're saying that you don't need to know anything about music to be a great musician. Don't need to know anything about playing guitar to be a great guitarist - that is the logic carried out in your argument here.

You're telling me George Lynch does not know theory? You think he solos in the harmonic minor scale by pure accident?

Oh and Hendrix didn't know anything about the blues right? He just played all that by accident too.

The principle is to learn all you can about theory and then put it aside or "forget about it" when writing.

I can sit down and come up with a tune in about 5 minutes - I did last night - I do it all the time. Good ones not crap. My point is you don't base it strictly on theory but if you don't know theory you will never be the musician you can be. It opens up opportunities and ideas - not boxes you in. You learn how to put sounds together like puzzles.

If you do understand theory then you know what you are doing when you go "out of the box" or out of the key and come back in key mixing chromatic stuff, maybe switching to major blues then coming back to the main riffs.

Its always the guys that don't know any that seem to argue that it is not important. An I'm not saying that there have not been great songs written by ear - there have been a lot of them. But not consistently.

My opinion is you can do a lot more when you know what you are doing as opposed to guessing. I have seen the difference. I have been there - not knowing how to get around the fretboard and just using my ears. Fine if that is what you prefer. But this has been my experience.

But you will have a different attitude if you ever decide to understand theory.

Listen to music of the 80's (metal stuff). Brilliantly written and melodic. Many of those guys went to Berkley. Listen to the stuff now adays. Non melodic, atonal, etc... Yeah there are some good songs - but my point is that musicians don't learn their craft anymore. And the music reflects it.

And the labels just eat it up. Because once you get good you command more money and they don't want that. They want to make all of the money off of your 1st 3 CD's and then they boot you.

So don't learn theory. What do I care. Its just my opinion. But I don't have to guess my way around the fretboard. Someone has a tune and I can come up with a part that will fit right away.

If you decide to I guarantee you will never regret the time and work you put in to learn it and it will show in your song writing ability.

Its not theory that hampers ability or boxes you in - its lack of imagination.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make some great points here. I agree, theory doesn't hamper you so much as how you apply or don't apply it as you also state.. you learn it, then it becomes something you don't always think about. I recall a long time ago (like 1980) reading an article in GP with Al Dimeola (also Berkeley educated) where they asked him about applying modes, scales etc...he said what he learned becomes a natural state of transistion and expression..his emphasis is upon just playing and his techniques of how he practiced became developed into 'his' style.. like 'mutola' or whatever he had that he called it. His style of partially muting as expression came about from the need to keep his playing quiet so people wouldn't complain when he practiced.

Satriani, who is also very schooled in theory..says not to analyze it, you just let it happen.

Speaking of which.. I'm probably overanalyzing this topic when I could be playing.. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[shredmonster]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

My point overall is that it takes imagination and creativity and knowledge (theory) to be able to consistently write Good stuff - not rehash everyone else's music - same 3 chord stuff.

How much theory is not what I am getting at. But if you know some you will benefit. The more you know the more you will benefit.

To have both is the idea. The theory aspect gives you starting and reference points. Then you take it from there to add your own creativity or ideas, improvise or throw it out all together.

Lets take it to each extreme. A guy walks up to a guitar not knowing anything about music or guitar and wants to become a rock star - oh and by the way he does not want to learn anything along the way either. How good is this guy ever going to be? Maybe he will write one hit song , maybe 2 - who knows?

Take the same guy and teach him a Reasonable amount of knowledge about scales and chords. What modes are, etc...
He does not need to be a PHD in music and that is not what I am saying.

But I think to be accomplished and consistent you have to have both technical knowledge as well as creativity or originality. And that is my opinion. How much of each is not the point that I am making. You need some of both. Lets say a Reasonable amount.

I have seen guys sit around all night guessing at what the next chord or part they are going to play next - not understanding even what key they are in. Technical ability and theory should add to creativity not detract from it.

[charvelguy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

I agree, you would benefit if you have the knowledge to discern what scale and modes you can play around any given structure.

[Endrik]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

Nuno doesn't know jack shit about scales, modes, theory etc. yet he write one of the most badass songs wich are complex as hell. Theory isn't so important, it is a good thing but you have to use your ears, that's how the good shit is made.

[shredmonster]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

Beleive whatever you want pal. Yep - does not even know what a C chord is I bet huh?

[shredmonster]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

[ QUOTE ]
You make some great points here. I agree, theory doesn't hamper you so much as how you apply or don't apply it as you also state.. you learn it, then it becomes something you don't always think about. I recall a long time ago (like 1980) reading an article in GP with Al Dimeola (also Berkeley educated) where they asked him about applying modes, scales etc...he said what he learned becomes a natural state of transistion and expression..his emphasis is upon just playing and his techniques of how he practiced became developed into 'his' style.. like 'mutola' or whatever he had that he called it. His style of partially muting as expression came about from the need to keep his playing quiet so people wouldn't complain when he practiced.

Satriani, who is also very schooled in theory..says not to analyze it, you just let it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I solo I don't even think about where I put my fingers anymore. I don't look at the fingerboard at all when I solo. If I want it to sound major I know how to move around sounding major. If I want to sound minor I can sound minor. If I want to play in the harmonic minor and sound exotic I can do that - whatever. I can go chromatic and then go in and out of 7th trills, run arpeggios us using a flat 5th etc... Point is I mix it up WITHOUT THINKING - only using my EARS. But I would never have been able to get to this point without first analyzing how to make it sound major and why it sounded major for example. Then experimenting moving in and out of the major modes.

My solos are completely from the hip, no 2 are ever the same but I have control over my Sound. I don't sound disonant because overall I have learned how to fit in with the music.

I developed my style by first writing everything down and playing it over and over until I could naturally improvise - changing and coloring the sound while avoiding disonance.

You take a musical foundation and develop your own style and sound, etc...

Its like a comedian. They all speak the English language. So how come they are so different - some are funny some are not. Different topics and different jokes. We all have 2 legs how come we all have different walks?

So guys - disagree. Fine. Like I always say this is just my opinion - you have a different one. The guys that understand theory and when to use it and when to throw it out will understand what I am talking about. The guys that don't know it will not understand because they have no base of reference. These are the guys that put up the most argument and not open their minds to the possibility that they don't know something. I have been on both sides of the fence and I am 10 times a better player because I put the work in to learn the stuff. It's like trying to explain the color yellow to a blind man.

[Endrik]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

theory isn't music, it is just "RULES and FORMULAS" to make easyer to understand what are notes, progressions etc.
A lot of people who know a lot of theory use it as a road-map when writing songs, that is booring. Also there are a lot of good things you can do with notes that music theory doesn't "allow". Very good players don't really need to know RULES because they usually have a VERY good realtive pitch. They compose their stuff in their head and then apply it to their instrument. Having a good relative pitch or/and perfect pitch makes music so logical that it is more easyer to understand it than knowing theory. Steve Vai who is known for his huge knowledge of theory etc. never uses it when he writes songs. He uses a lot of weird harmony lines etc. that aren't written in any theory book. He can do whatever he wants because he has a superb relative and perfect pitch.
A good ear makes compostion more interesting and they have more emotional content. IMO good music comes from the heart not from the brain. About Nuno, I think he knows what C chord is and maybe what blues pentatonic scale but that's about it. He knows all the "scales" and stuff in his head as he has memorized wich note sounds good and wich note doesn't sound good over specific chord or chord progression.
Knowing theory isn't bad, not at all, but to write good emotional songs you need to train your ear.

[atomic charvel guy]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

all i ever fukkin' said was that songs pour out of me, and let's just leave it at that. they're all over the later pages of the mp3 section if ya wanna hear 'em. i'll send you a cd if you want,just repeating what both players claimed. i'm out.

[Endrik]

Re: How do you guys write songs?

Tommy's riffs and leads are badass that's for sure, EVH and Warren D. school all the way.