kick drum question

[Fragle]

not sure if this is the right forum.....

anyways, i wonder how you guys want the kick drum to sound like?
i definitely prefer a very loud and clear kick that's really up front in the mix. strangely, i also prefer triggered kicks over natural one's.
a good example is the drum sound of hatesphere's latest record, "the sickness within".....but i'm sure nobody even knows this one [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] maybe bill...

an interesting thing is that i talked to a few drummers, and they ALL said that they absolutely HATE the kick drum sound on this record. "processed" and "unnatural", apparently. drummers... [img]/images/graemlins/poke.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

drummers are bitch about tones like us the guitar players are about guitar tones.
All the great drummers want a natural tone, trigger is good for attack but it sounds cheap and "plastic".
Kick drum's role isn't loud and clear beat in front of the mix, it ruins the song dynamics. Kick drum must sound low. Very attacky and in front in the mix kickdrum causes the loss of heavyness in the whole mix.
Tommy Lee has one of the best kick drum sounds ever, he uses really BIG drums, one of his kicks is 26" the other is 32".
Big drums wich are made with the best material avaliable can sound really magical.
For really good heavy kick drum sound you should use the trigger, two drum mics (one inside of the drum, the other outside) and a bunch of room mics wich add a lot of the dynamics and natural ambience so you don't have to mess with the reverbs and whatnot. The sample makes the kick sound punchy, the miced parts add the natural sound and the dynamics. Now the very important part is compressing and EQing wich is rocket sience in pro level. This is very important.
Kick drum must sound low, the snare is the thing that must be loud, clear and in front in the mix.

[Newc]

Re: kick drum question

I prefer a deep kick with some punch but not overpowering the bass guitar or the low end crunch of the guitars. I do not like that "clickity click" bass drum or that "flap flap flappity" kick drum - sounds plastic.

My old drummer built his kit after Eric Carr's kit with the quadra-bass setup - 4 24" long kicks bolted together end to end in pairs to make 2 48" long kicks. That kit rocked. Only needed one mic on each kick, no compression, no EQ, and it had an undeniable presence.

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: kick drum question

a lot depends on the type of music and the type of instruments in the band.

in today's extreme metal, the thinking is that the kick needs that triggered attack to stand out since the flurry of notes often reaches the 240bpm mark. this drum may sound like crap, alone, b/c of the shorter sustain, lack of tone etc. In such a case, the drum needs to be heard quickly with not much sustain. same drum wouldn't work in a Crue song though. slower music buys you more time for the drum to sound good between strokes.

also, what frequencies are the drums and guitars fighting over? Division plays seven string guitars, so that's a factor. maybe i should ask Mike/Dave what they want to hear from my kicks, other than me not sucking.

Lamb of God's latest has an interesting kick sound. Sounds like a really loose wrikled batter head. It's refreshing and it works on that record, but I'm not quite sure if i'd tire of it elsewhere.

[Reverend Timmy]

Re: kick drum question

The best kick drum sound my last drummer had we sampled him stomping his foot on the floor board of a 85 Silverado pickup.( rubber floor mat,not carpet)It sounded great!...

[skarhead]

Re: kick drum question

Just like Oogaadee said : all depends on the music.

I play 99% percent of time metal (death metal tempos as those abovementioned, sometimes thrash etc) and i want to hear the kicks precisely, loud and cutting through (so hi-mid eq bands boosted) - sorta like fear factory etc.

[Fragle]

Re: kick drum question

well, so as always, different strokes for different folks [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

of course, this super clear and "artificial" kick sound does NOT fit in a classic rock (or worse [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) context. but for heavy stuff (speed metal and above) i think it's mandatory.

thats pretty much the thing with andy sneap, too. he has a very characteristic drum sound, one that sounds GREAT for fast kick drum runs or double bass playing in general. however, this classic thrash pattern doesn't come through very clearly in his mixes (e.g. enemy of god by kreator) (disclaimer: i don't want to bash andy in any way, he's one of the best - if not THE best - metal producers). to me, the reason is that kick and snare sound too similar.

now, of course, there's always stuff like testament - practice what you preach. SUPER klicky kick sound without any chunk at all. not exactly my thing [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

imho, the haunted - revolver, hatesphere - the sickness within, cannibal corpse - the wretched spawn, the last two exodus records (OK, those were andy sneap...) etc etc all have kickass drum sounds. as you can see, this is the stuff i'm talking about, and those drum sounds would likely sound like total crap when used for stuff like ac/dc [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

I don't want to bash Andy, but he is metal audio engineer, the "production" he does is minimal. Producer is totally different person.

about the kickdrum, a really good producer/engineer like David Bottrill can make you a kick drum wich sounds good for AC/DC and speed metal band. The more money you have the better sound you'll have. You get what you pay for.

[Fragle]

Re: kick drum question

depends. for some stuff he receives the recorded stuff and has to mix/master it, but there are also other project (like e.g. the latest nevermore record) where he's there right from pre production up to the final mastering.

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

Andy recorded, mixed and mastered Nevermore. I'm pretty sure he cave some advice too for Nevermore guys. Put producer is the dude who is the boss, he arranges the songs, chooses the song tempos, chooses the instrument tones, he directs the recording engineer, he decides how the singer has to sing and what lyrics he/she has to use etc. High budget producer is pretty expensive, hireing him costs more than all the Nevermore's records budget.

But andy is pretty good engineer for metal, his mixing is pretty decent not as good as Andy Wallace or Bob Rock's work put he does the job pretty well.
As a recording engineer, well his not my favourite, there are many things I would do differently but he is way better than that swedish dude who's in the Studio Friedman.
I'm sure 10 years later Andy will be at least 2x better than he is now.

[Newc]

Re: kick drum question

I've not quite heard of a Producer being given that amount of power over a band [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]
I was under the impression that the producer worked the final mix, and had no authority to write the lyrics or guitar parts, or dial in the band's tone other than to mix them to each other.

Mental note to self: Be your own producer [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

Newc, then you really don't know how the things work in the music biz, I'm talkin' about the higest level not underground metal. If you are in a band and want to sell a lot of records but tell the record company that you want to produce your own records then they say fuck you and goodbye. That's a fact. And you can't possibly be a good producer right away, no one cant, even the best mucicans are below the avarage when it comes to porducing. Producers are the guys with tons of knowledge, experience and vision. And all the great rock and pop records have been produced by some GOOD producer. The only exception is Zeppelin where Jimmy porduced. Did Pink Floyd did the wall by themself, noo, The Wall has sold about 27 million copies, it was produced by Bob Erzin. Tha fact is that producers are producers and musicians are musicians and you can't do a great record without a great producer, that's the reality.

[Newc]

Re: kick drum question

So Roger Waters and David Gilmour didn't write the songs and music for The Wall, Bob Ezrin did?
Fascinating.

Seriously, I know the producer has SOME say in the matter, but I was under the impression that they only made suggestions about how a given song might maintain a given artist's sellable image, and have never heard of them having the level of control you're describing.
I know "creative control" is a big issue, but I thought that was more for artists who wanted to branch out into every direction (like Zeppelin - go from blues and rock on I and II to flat out acoustic folk on III), but the label (producer) knows that is too risky so they keep the band focused on whatever's selling them at the moment.

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

no, producers usually don't WRITE anything, they decide wich thing fits the best and wich doesn't. The bigger the album's budget is the more controll the producer has. Small budget albums...well that's another story...producers usually give advice...high budget producers TELL what the others MUST do. It may sound rough for the artist but really it isn't a bad thing because thanks to the good producers the artist sells more. Also when you only have lyrics and chord progressions the producer makes a REAL song out of it. Producers are important in song arrengement, good musicians are avarage at it. Do you know that Metallica didn't know jack shit about real arrengements untill Bob Rock came in. They were suprised when Bob told them that the bass should be with the drums, it is the most basic and important thing in song arrengement but the Metallica guys who were big artists in metal didn't know that.

[Newc]

Re: kick drum question

To be more precise, that's how it was supposed to be for everything but Thrash. Since Metallica and Megadeth practically invented Speed/Thrash, having the bass lines double the guitar was an integral part of the sound of the genre, and is one of the defining elements.

Unfotunately, Bob Rock took a lot of the thunder away from Metallica's rhythms by giving the bass a more traditional place in the mix, and beefing the guitars up in the mix with EQ.
Previously, when the bass was doubling the guitar roots, the sound was a lot tighter and heavier (up until Justice, when there was little to no bass because the kick was so low). In order for Lars' kick to be that low, the bass had to be dropped to an almost inaudible level.