kick drum question

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: kick drum question

hmmmm. i see a spectrum

One this end....
An artist who puts THEIR vision first (i.e. screw what a producer thinks). Maybe somebody like Shai Halud is here. Mustaine can be here too - but he's been influenced by past producers like the Max Norman, so he's not exactly pure anymore. but he's still the artist.

and

way

down

here

An artist who wants a current pop hit (i.e. sell out, aka probably didn't write shit, probably don't give a shit, probably can't sing it live, aka lindsay lohan or something). Endrik's version is here, controlling everything from sounds to song arrangements to bpm to EVERYTHING.

I'd imagine we're mostly somewhere in the middle... leaning towards the former. Basically, your vision comes first, but you're open to a second opinion from somebody with fresh ears. Bob Rock may be in the middle, suggesting sounds, suggesting arrangements, etc. But ultimately, he can be fired.

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: kick drum question

also, I wouldn't credit rock with metallica's most successful album.

it was a sign of the times in the music industry. the pop world was ready for the black album and countdown to extinction. just like it was ready for grunge, nu metal, etc. it was just something "new", and metallica & rock and good timing if anything.

listen to the black album now. it's boring and sounds constricted (to me at least). Nothing opens up. standards change.

[Matt Crooks]

Re: kick drum question

I think Endrick's assertions are a little too generic.

The role of the producer is different in every situation.

In some situations the prod. has to come up with budgets, stick to budgets, provide reports to the label, make sure that catering is taken care of, and that the artist is comfortable, and little more.

In other situations the prod. is responsible for making sure that the tones that are recorded are good and that the performances are good.

In other situations the prod. is responsible for re-writing and/or arranging the material.

In other situations the prod. is responsible for writing the material from the start.

In most situations, it's some combination of the above.

Most of the great rock producers have said in interviews that they're there to help the artist achieve their vision. The take the songs the artist writes and helps the artist mold them into the best possible song, by some combination of re-writing/re-arranging and performance guidance. Very rarely do the tell the artist you MUST play something this way. They will strongly suggest how things should be played, and in the end, if they're not happy with something they usually have the authority to make the artist do something over. It sounds like it's a very contentious process, however the idea is generally that the producer is part of a team with the band.

The role of the producer is also influenced by who hires the prod. If the prod. is paid by the band (rarely) he will have less authority than if he is paid by the label.

When a prod. has to hire in session musicians they absolutely must tell the session guys what they need to play, since they are only there to play parts on someone else's songs.

In pop productions, it ususally not the producer who picks the songs by him/herslef, it's a combination of the artist, the prod. and the A&R rep for the record company. Once the song is chosen, fleshing it out is generally the responsability of the producer.

In the case of Sneap and Nevermore... he was involved in the pre-production arrangement and writing, choices of tones, choices of performance takes, mixing and mastering. That is production, not simply engineering.

Also, artists do prodcue themselves on big budget records. Nickleback produced their last record, and that has gone multi-platnium.

[Newc]

Re: kick drum question

The Producer's Role discussion reminds me of a column I read in Recording magazine a few years ago written by some guy who wrote a book about "Everything you need to know about the music business" or something like that.
Anyhoo, practically everything he said in those columns went contradictory to everything I've read from signed artists - from Page to Vai to whoever.

For example, he claims a "standard contract" involves signing away your music as a "work for hire" to the label, not to mention your publishing and copyrights.
Everyone else has always said to retain your publishing, and what I know about it says that when you sign it over as a work for hire (not as a hired gun but as a signed contracted artist "star") you get only what they pay you the one time, while the label rakes in everything from sales.

I thought at the time that this guy had his head on backwards, but then I read the little comment at the bottom about him being an A&R guy and Producer for a major label for years, and then it hit me - "company man". [img]/images/graemlins/eyes.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

all the stuff I wrote is based on what the pro-producers have told to me or to some of my firends. Usually the musicians and the producers speak totally different "language", you can't tell who's telling the "real" truth.
I try to be as objective as I can but tend to appriciate more producers who take the big role in the recording process, why, because usually the final product is better that way IMO.

Oogadee, IMO black album is the most succesful 'Tallicas' album, yeah I know that MOP infulenced tons of metal fans yadda yadaa but thanks to Black Album a lot of non-metal-heads and non-musicians started to like Metallica. It can't be bad if SOOO MANY people enjoy that.
Speaking of facts, black album is one of the best selling albums in the history. Also it has way better production than any other Metallica album. A lot say that MOP sounds the best but it doesn't mean it has the best production, MOPs arrangements arent perfect, the mix could be a lot better, the reverbs are too fucking fat etc. Black Album doesn't have these problems. It is rediculously polished.

Matt, I don't know if Sneap produced or not the Nevermore, but as a producer he isn't in the same league as the Erzin and co. He is very good engineer, but I don't hear any high production values in any of his albums.

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: kick drum question

[ QUOTE ]
Oogadee, IMO black album is the most succesful 'Tallicas' album, yeah I know that MOP infulenced tons of metal fans yadda yadaa but thanks to Black Album a lot of non-metal-heads and non-musicians started to like Metallica. It can't be bad if SOOO MANY people enjoy that.
Speaking of facts, black album is one of the best selling albums in the history. Also it has way better production than any other Metallica album. A lot say that MOP sounds the best but it doesn't mean it has the best production, MOPs arrangements arent perfect, the mix could be a lot better, the reverbs are too fucking fat etc. Black Album doesn't have these problems. It is rediculously polished.

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m sure it is the best selling of all time. But record sales (especially from recruiting non-metal heads, as you stated) does not a great metal record make. you're basically saying a thrashing heavy metal band brought in this hit-making slick producer to dumb arrangements down and make their most successful record ever, which, ironically, was their least "metal" record up to that point. The same thing happened with Countdown and Megadeth had their biggest record ever. Because jocks bought them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Pop culture is just weird - it's hard to discuss social behavior on a message board. There are many reasons why the black album sold well, which have nothing to do with Metallica. The band and Rock alone didn't pull fans by themselves - new fans were pushed to them. Marketing, MTV, trends, hair-metal fatigue, etc had to do with pushing people towards the black album.

My other disagreement with your take on this is that I see production (in terms of achieving tones & sound) is a reflection of what's popular at the moment. The demand cultivates the result. At one point, AJFA had the ultimate crunchy tone. But that's not "in" anymore, so nobody big is doing it that way from what I understand. It’s just really subjective. Rock took the same chance with St Anger and guessed wrong this time – but he’s still the same genius, right?

Any way’s I’m rambling. The shiny production of the black album resulting in nothing more than a shiny polished turd in a new refreshing flavor. And it came in bite sized pieces for non metal heads. Therefore, it sold well.

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

"But record sales (especially from recruiting non-metal heads, as you stated) does not a great metal record make."

That's why metal people don't like high budget production.
Most of the metal is a stupid cult, there is some friggin' "rule" that you have to be tr00 and UG. I'm glad that Metallica guys grew up and started to make high quality rock/pop music, that's all that matters to me and most of the people...GOOD SONGS. I don't care if somone says that Black albun isn't a great METAL record, the fact is that it is a FANTASTIC record, metal or not, it doesn't matter to most of the people.

IMO AJFA sucked, the arrangements sucked, the sound sucked, and most of the songs sucked ass. That's my opinion. I like RTL bazillion times more (my fav. Metallica record).
Bob Rock and the Metallica guys made St. Anger sound EXACTLY like they wanted it to sound. Sucky to fans or not, it sold well and I personally dig that album.

If black album would have been very complex album, very heavy and without the good prodcution do you really think that the record company would have promoted it so much??? Do you really belive that??? I'm more than 100% sure that every guy who is involved in music biz would say "no fuckin' way".

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: kick drum question

i love high quality production.

Dude, you want your music to be popular and achieve high record sales.

I'm metal and I don't care about pleasing pop culture. I play from the heart, not the brain or wallet or whatever you need to come up with "the hook". If that makes me a part of the metal elite, well, i'm glad to be a part of the crew.

So we'll agree to disagree and I'm pretty much done here, since we're not talking about kick drums anymore.

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

"Dude, you want your music to be popular and achieve high record sales."

yes, I admit that, I want to have A LOT OF money and chicks.

"I play from the heart, not the brain or wallet or whatever you need to come up with "the hook"."

most people do, all the pros have said that if you make music only for the money then you NEVER get the fame.

"...and I'm pretty much done here, since we're not talking about kick drums anymore"

Vinnie Paul has a kick ass kick drum sound [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
seriosly, it does kick ass, one of the reasons for that sound is that Vinnie's kick drums are CANNONS, probably the longest kick drums I've ever seen, 24x24 baby.

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: kick drum question

not done yet. haha.

Vinnie was the first drummer i ever noticed when I started playing drums. Vulgar blew me away - massive drums, killer ride cymbal. I remember every drum but the snare was of square diameter x depth. you're right about his kicks - 24x24. toms were something like 14x14 15x15 18x18 and an 8" deep snare!

[Endrik]

Re: kick drum question

Vinnie's snare sound also kicks ass, 14x8 maple snare, I love deep maple snares, most of my fav snare sounds are made with 8".