I can't get any faster

[maddog]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

[ QUOTE ]
a fast player can always slow down

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true, but isn't always the case. I hear a lot of guys online who are learning to shred etc and they play their semi-quaver scale patterns and licks and then they try to slow down. But the problem is they have not worked on their slow playing. They haven't worked on bending, phrasing and vibrato. So you end up with some fast playing, then slow shitty playing. The slow playing really shows where the weakness is.

I think somebody once said something like this on this forum.

"The vibrato separates the men from the boys"

But a good player should have worked on all of the areas.

Check out some of the guest columnists on chops from hell to see examples of fast picking licks with shitty vibrato on the end.

[kmanick]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

Exactly true!
it's alot easier to sound good playing fast than it is
playing slow. I see alot of kids in GC's and Daddys that
can sweep like crazy, but they have no idea how to
actually "grab" a note and make it sing.
I think some of it may have to do with the way guitarists
are learning how to play these days, in a more classical
position with the thumb always on the back of the neck.

It's a lot more effective to grab notes and apply a vibrato with your thumb wrapped over the top of the neck.

Watch Jeff Beck or SRV, or EVH, or Ynwgie when they grab
notes, their thumb is not glued to the back of the neck.
Plus I see lot of kids playing in minor modes and have no idea how to play blues. [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]
If you can't play blues you're missing a huge piece of
what rock guitar is all about, and fusion and jazz will
be completely foreign to you without a blue base to work from.

[Endrik]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

those guys like Fareri etc. aren't really technical players, yeah they can play fast but they can't do the most simplest thing as finger vibrato.
hey maybe vibrato is the hardest technique then, everyone could learn to sweep pick, but vibrato is the thing that real man can master.

[Twisteramps]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

blues are fine if that's what you're into, ditto for jazz and other styles - but to say that you can't be a good player without knowing them is like saying you can't play the blues well without knowing how to play african tribal music. We enjoy what we enjoy. To think of someone as a poor musician because they have different influences is mind boggling.

FYI, I played country and classical gigs, and also did a blues/rock/jazz thing for a bit too. I think I'm pretty well rounded, but I don't think any less of a player who just wants to play metal (or any singular genre of music)and that's it.

Pete

[Endrik]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

funny thing is that when some fast player plays slowly you can always tell he can blaze too.

When I first heard George Lynch, it was some awsome slow solo and wile I listened to it I was 100% sure that he can shred like a motherfucker, and I was right. Same thing with Lukather, Gary Moore etc.
Technical players who can REALLY play sound very expressive and different than the slow players.

[maddog]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

I think Kmanick was saying that to play rock, fusion and jazz it is useful to have a good blues base to work from. I agree with this as that is where a lot of rock and jazz came from.

[Endrik]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

I don't know any leads player that I like who can't play the blues.

[kmanick]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

[ QUOTE ]
I think Kmanick was saying that to play rock, fusion and jazz it is useful to have a good blues base to work from. I agree with this as that is where a lot of rock and jazz came from.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I am saying. Pete if someone just wants to play a certain type of music, I've got no problem with that.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that can blaze who know nothing but a minor scale, but if you don't know basic blues then Jazz and Fusion is going to be really
tough to get a grip on.
That's all I'm saying,but if you not interested in playing Jazz or fusion then "no Problemo" who gives a shit about blues [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[shredmonster]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

Interesting view points here.

I think the hardest thing to do on the guitar is be good and well rounded at both speed and expresiveness. It is extremely hard to do both and only the best players seem to be able to do both ie. Uli Roth, Jason Becker, Yngwie, Schenker, etc..

I see a lot more players that are accomplished at playing fast than I see accomplished at great vibrato. Both take years to develop but there is great skill that is needed to make the guitar expressive which means development of a whole vocabulary of vibratos - not just one vibrato.

I get really bored these days listening to 300 notes per second even though I spent my life learning how to play like that. I have balanced the last 10 years of my playing learning vibrato and expresiveness personally. But when a guy just goes fast all of the time and has no vibrato skills there is something lacking in my mind.

I would rather hear a great expressive solo ie. Michael Schenker or Uli Roth as opposed to a Chris Impellitterri Solo or Rusty Cooley solo - not that they aren't also fantastic accomplished guitarists.

But a guy that knows how to express himself and has a great vibrato always sounds better than the guy who just blazes with no space in between the notes.

I never set out to learn the blues - anything but. I can play the blues just fine from all of the time I have put in learning scales and 7ths and all the other stuff that makes blues blues. But I never play the blues unless I am with other musicians jamming because that is the usual basis for jamming with other people - common ground so to speak.

However the guy I usually free jam with is a very good player and we usually will play minor modes or harmonic minor stuff and we can make it expressive. I don't think expressiveness comes from the blues - it comes from the player. It takes both physical technique and motivation from inside you to want to express yourself.

Blues is a very expressive way to play by nature of the note spaces sounding that way. And you can get quite complicated in how you play the blues adding a lot of chromatics if you really know how to use them.

But I find it more interesting when a player can be expressive in their own style especially when it is not blues.

I think by nature of the guitar the first thing most players learn is the pentatonic scale which lends itself to the blues naturally. You throw in another note and you have a blues scale. So you have a natural progression on the guitar towards playing the blues and then adding that 7th note to get the full major/minor scale. So I think you need the note framework of the scales to progress to jazz and fusion. And there are a lot of ways to put those notes together - you could play a blues scale and make it sound totally different than the blues. I think it is the scale and not the type of music that lends itself to progression of a more complicated style.

[khabibissell]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

Playing slow does not mean playing with poor technique. Like was stated above, you can tell when a guy is good just by the confidence with which he plays. 9 times out of 10 that person can also play fast.

I also disagree with the old playing faster is harder than playing slowly and/or tastefully. I'm not "shredder" but I can play somewhat fast. I joined a new band and most of their songs are slower and moodier than I'm used to. Sure, I could try to light it up, but it would sound ridiculous. I'm now forced to slow down and make it count. It has been a difficult transition.

I think that if you are going to play slower and melodically, you need to understand theory better than a "shred" guy. If you sustain the wrong note or bend up too much/too little, it will sound like ass. For me anyway, the slower soloing has made me study more theory stuff.

As for the speed thing, I have to disagree with the above. Though I think it is very important to be concious of how clean you are playing, try this as it helped me.

Start slowly until you get the fingerings down, optimally with a metronome. Then, try to go for it. Like I said, being clean is important, but blazing will help you get the feeling of the effort it takes to play the passage up to tempo. I tried this after reading an old GFTPM interview with Jason Becker and it helped me. I was stuck playing the same difficult passages over and over with no real improvement until I adopted this approach.

This reminds me of a weight training techinique I learned from a body builder guy when I was in the Marines where you would slowly and steadily do your reps focusing on technique and then blast the last one out faster and maybe a little heavier. Guitar playing is alot like working out as it is a muscle memory/strengh issue, at least technically.

[kmanick]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

There you go! [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img] shredmonster actually worded my thoughts out a little better than I did.

I myself am not a big blues player , I know the blues because I play a lot a fuzion and jazz, but it's blues scales and alterations that I use.
I guess what I was really trying to say is that I see a lot a shredders (kids especially) that have no feel.
I learned my feel by studying Beck, Trower, EVH, and Frank Marino , all blues based players but (except for Trower) not really "blues" players per se, just Rock players.
Now I play alot of shred that has nothing to do with blues, but when I play slowly, my playing doesn't lose anything because I learned how to play slowly with feel first.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

imho its more in the note selection than the speed. If its not melodic its worthless. You can play really fast over a slower piece and still sound fluid, fast and be melodic.

What happens is a lot of the technical players remain just that, technical. They practice and practice and practice patterns, scales and sequences all the time when they should also be improvising and feeling it instead of seeing how many notes they can cram in a measure. All the technique in the world won't help you if you can't apply it musically or melodically. A perfect example of a waste of technique is Rusty Cooley, great player, fast shit but to me says absolutely nothing to me musically.

I also agree with Pete in the people who normally rag on the speedsters are people who are too lazy to put in the time to learn to play fast and clean.

[maddog]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

Having said what I've said and thought about what you guys have said I have realised that playing with different emotions is also important. Sometimes you just need to go crazy amd make a lot of noise and play a lot of notes without any emotion. Is this still playing with feel? Or is it just a different emotion?

[khabibissell]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

Either way you look at it, it takes work to become good, whether you play slower/melodic stuff or speedy techinical stuff.

Funny thing... On the HC amp forum somebody brought up Francisco Ferrari (sp?) anyway, there are videos on his site and I had to laugh. The guy play some ridiculous 30 nps runs ending with slow "feel" sustains and bends. The fast stuff was immaculate. The "feel" stuff sounded like a someone that just picked up a guitar, terrible bends and vibrato. I can't understand why someone would want to play like that. Most people get bored with all that wanking. As Shawn said, you've got to say something musically when you play, fast or slow.

[khabibissell]

Re: I can\'t get any faster

There is nothing wrong with having a solo that is "noise". If it fits, use it! Some progressions or song content require the lead break to be a frantic, "noise" thing. Think about the break in "Over the Mountain". Randy plays some fast scalar passages, broken up with some flashy pulloff tricks and whammy dives. Not the most musical melodic thing, but works perfectly.