Using diminished scales

[khabibissell]

I'm looking to add some spice to my solos, and I like the sound of diminished scales and arpeggios. The problem is, I haven't really figured out how to get them in there. From what I've gathered, the 2nd chord in a minor key should be dimished. In E minor for example, does this mean I should play F# diminished? Neither that nor E Diminished sounds right to me. Any tips would be appreciated.

[Soap]

Theoretically speaking don't spend too much time uderstanding it, just play some of the stuff and let your hands and ears sort it out.
Diminshed stuff doesn't follow the typical or traditional pattern of scaling up the neck. Most scales (not all) follow the very typical increments for scaling up the neck. Meaning, a box type pattern/shape making its way up the neck.
Diminished, are more diagnol (sorry bad spelling, you know what it is) in pattern. The go up the neck in a diagnol pattern, creating and forcing some long stretches and finger switching with some dimished scales. Good stuff to have in the arsenal to draw from though. As always, have fun with it.

[metalhead28]

I'm looking to add some spice to my solos, and I like the sound of diminished scales and arpeggios. The problem is, I haven't really figured out how to get them in there. From what I've gathered, the 2nd chord in a minor key should be dimished. In E minor for example, does this mean I should play F# diminished? Neither that nor E Diminished sounds right to me. Any tips would be appreciated.

If you're in E Minor and you switch to the second chord of F# Diminished, you could still play E aeolian over that. You could also play a diminished scale, but it's not going to sound sweet over it like a regular diatonic scale. Maybe you're expecting it to sound different, but it's supposed to create tension.
The obvious use of a diminished scale is over a diminished chord, but another interesting use is to just employ a bit of it here and there for some exotic flavored licks. You'll open up to that through experimentation.
Remember that there are only 3 diminished scales total. A single scale will work for 3 different keys, and then you have the option of playing the half/whole scale or the whole/half scale which can sort of be considered a mode of the diminished scale. Work out some diminished based licks and then move them around and experiment using them in different keys. You'll be suprised where some of them will work.

[jcm800x]

Good advice here. I use them over the vii in harmonic minor and sometimes over the V7 for some flavor.

[kmanick]

here's an easy way. if you're playing in E minor go to the 7th (E flat) and move up and down in miner 3rds (fret frets at a time) any of these positions will work and learn you're diminished arps in those positions. Listen to Jeff Loomis, he incorporates these all over the place.
I've been really into getting these up to speed in my own playing, they add a cool flavor to a solo.

[Twisteramps]

here's an easy way. if you're playing in E minor go to the 7th (E flat) and move up and down in miner 3rds (fret frets at a time) any of these positions will work and learn you're diminished arps in those positions. Listen to Jeff Loomis, he incorporates these all over the place.
I've been really into getting these up to speed in my own playing, they add a cool flavor to a solo.

7th in E minor is actually a D natural. The Eb would be a raised 7th (D#), and would most likely be part of E harmonic Minor.

Look at a diminished run like you would a dominant 7th chord - you're not going to be hanging out there very long, it's more of a passing or a 'bridge' tone to be resolved. Music is tension and release - diminished chords and licks are certainly 'tension'. A good place to put your diminished stuff would be on the V7 as someone mentioned earlier.

Say you have a blues progression - I IV V. Just before you resolve back to the I, try a diminished run - where the turnaround is.

A diminished scale isn't like a pentatonic where every note pretty much fits- you're going to have to either be playing over a progression that has diminshed chords in it already, or fit it in carefully like I mentioned above.

Pete

[Shawn Lutz]

Used sparingly and it can be pretty cool. I use them along with melodic minor and harmonic minor scales. I agree with Pete 100%, its not a scale that your gonna be using for a long time during a piece of music...just a few outside notes here and there and it can do some wonders

[kmanick]

7th in E minor is actually a D natural. The Eb would be a raised 7th (D#), and would most likely be part of E harmonic Minor.
Pete

right Pete, that's what I actually meant , my mistake.
Sorry about that khabibissell

[khabibissell]

Yeah, I found that I could use D dimished (well, starting on F on the high E and Ending on D on the sixth string) during a simple Em B C D chord progression right before it resolves to E.

I started jamming with this other guy that is pretty good. He introduced me to the circle of fifths (which I've heard of but never really knew what it was about). I can't believe how many scales you can use over any particular chord progression!

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

[Twisteramps]

You can also play damn near anything if you resolve it. When I was teaching full time, I'd have a student play some random notes, then play a backing and play those notes and resolve them. Sometimes it sounded better than others, but with the right attitude you can make damn near anything work. Listen to the first note of the solo on "Winter's Call" by Badlands/Jake E Lee. He's playing an F over an Em!

Pete

[khabibissell]

I'm trying to explore new things. The last band I was in, every song was in Eminor, and had pretty much had the same feel and tempo. I got tired of playing the same licks... I really didn't know what else I could do. Between learning diminished, the circle of fifths, and sweeps/arpeggio stuff (which I'm starting to get good enough at to actually use), I've got alot to chew on for the moment.

I wish I could find a teacher that knew theory well, had some taste, and clean "modern" technique. Those guys are in short supply around here.

[RR05xx]

If you are looking for examples of throwing in dimished stuff, try listening to Marty Friedman, he used little dimished runs in a good number of the Megadeth solos he came up with. For the most part not overdone either IMHO.

[markb]

the second chord in a minor mode that you are thinking of is if you are playing in aeolian mode the second chord would be minor7flat5, which is half diminished (locrian). A diminished scale there would contrast slightly by one note (bb7 or natural 6 as opposed to the b7).

if you are using a progression with straight power chords, remember they are a perfect harmony (root + 5) and are neither major, minor, dominant or natural. You can fit diminished scales over them and they will work ok, just experiment.


if you are playing in the first mode of harmonic minor, the seventh is the diminished chord, or just flat the root. If you are in e, play Em and solo in harmonic minor over that for a bar or two, and drop down to Eb diminished and switch to a diminished scale. sounds very yngwieish if you throw in some arps.You can do that because you can play a diminished chord at any point that the two scales (harmonic minor and diminished) intersect. So in the first mode of e harmonic minor you could substitute in diminished chords at eb, f#, a, and c, as they all would invert off one another, part of the same diminished scale.

[shredmonster]

Yeah the guys above pretty much nailed it. I usually stick it with a quick switch to the harmonic minor (in Em - Eb instead of D as mentioned above).

Also I will throw it in on top of the minor7b5 but as markb said you're probably better off flatting the 7th to make it a pure diminished chord.

I will mention a couple other things. There are lots of cool patterns you can play using the diminished scale that use some or all of the notes in groups of 1,2 3 & 4 and different cadences. Try experimenting and coming up with patterns. Your fingers will get lost at first. You have to be able to slide your hand diagonally up and down the fretboard. Diminished runs are excellent for developing this ability.

Also experiment as mentioned above running patterns up in minor thirds ala Yngwie. Lots of stuff you can do with this method also.

[delt]

the second chord in a minor mode that you are thinking of is if you are playing in aeolian mode the second chord would be minor7flat5, which is half diminished (locrian).

Yep. From the seven diatonic modes, 3 are inherently minor (aeolian, dorian, phrygian) and 3 are inherently major (ionian, lydian, mixolyidian) -- and then there's the oddball (locrian) which is kind of based on a diminished scale (so it would be inherently minor flat5) .....you can get really cool neoclassical sounds with this stuff, just noodle around with it & figure what sounds good =)