Experiences with Lessons

[Endrik]

Haydn and most classical composers wrote with what is known as common practice harmony. Essentially it boils down to tonic-subdominant-dominant-tonic. Or for an actual chord example: C-F-G-C. Notice how nice it sounds to the ears? It sounds complete. Do you need to know the theory behind it to realize it sounds "correct"?

man, I don't know really shit about fucking theory, but using my AWSOME pitch, I'll notice that there's so much MORE going on in classical music. A lot of classical era and baroque era composers used a thing wich I call 5 pattern. It's something like Am, D, G, C, F, Bdim, E, Am etc. If we take composers like Hayden, then there's a lot more than C-F-G-C, I hear things like C-G-Am-C-Dm-Em-F-B?-C, this also something that Metallica loved to use. Then there's Chopin's chromatic progressions or from later era Debussy's polytonalitys and parallel chords.

That being said, no you don't need to know theory to realize what sounds correct. You need to realize what sounds good and it's all that matters. Music is built on sounds wich you hear in your head, this the way real musical emotion is expressed. If you follow what the books say... how you have to write a song, then that's pretty lame IMO.

This is all technique, which has nothing to do with theory.

duh, that's what I'm saying, but mr. smarty-pants thinks that's shit and everyone can do it.

Many of his riffs have nonsensical progressions and a bunch of seemingly random diminished arpeggios. Does this make it not awesome? Of course not.

listen to Stockhausen or Zappa, much more nonsense going on, I think that shit sounds cool as hell

I can only imagine how much better and more interesting the music would be if he learned some theory. Brain-crushing riffs and jaw-dropping lead technique can only take you so far.

True, knowing theory can make the music more interesting. I'm one who really doesn't give a shit about brain-crushing riffs and lead technique. I like interesting music. But the thing I like the most is good songwriting and knowing theory alone doesn't make you a great songwriter. Good song comes from the heart not head. Theory is good if the song (theme, melody etc.) is ready and you need to make some arrangements or making the whole thing more interesting. But then again when I listen to some Extreme's record I hear very interesting ideas, great arrangements, amazing songs etc. Nuno is the most stupidest person when it comes to theory but he created awsome and interesting music.

I don't have anything against theory, it's just fucking stupid to call people who do not understand all that shit non-musicians. Did all the greatest blues players used theory. B.B. King didn't even know what 12 bar blues progression is for most of his career. Even dudes like Steve Vai who has tremendous knowledge of theory don't use it when writing songs.

Inner ear, pitch and vision are actually the only things you need to create music. You can live without the other stuff but nothing can replace these things.

[Endrik]

+1.

Can someone explain to me how NOT knowing what you're doing, can help you do it better.... ?

I didn't know shit what I was doing 2-3 years ago on a big stage infront of 6000 people but the chick who gave me head after the show knew that I did something pretty good.

[Super_shredder]

theres 2 different types of player those who need to learn theory and those who are so talented ( hetfield, hendrix etc...) that learning theory might limit what they can do

[UFORocks]

theres 2 different types of player those who need to learn theory and those who are so talented ( hetfield, hendrix etc...) that learning theory might limit what they can do

What a steaming pile of horse crap. Assuming said musicians are so talented, (not saying they aren't), then knowing the theory that gives structure to what they play can only serve to make them better musicians.

Writing, composing, music without some knowledge of theory is like trying to build a house with nothing more than a hand saw and a hammer. Sure, you might be real accurate with that hammer and real fast with that saw, but how much easier would it be if you had a nailgun and a circular saw?
...

I think some people are taking this way to pesonally. This was supposed to be about experiences with lessons, not a debate about whether or not someone is a better guitar player because they know theory.

Later,

Steve

[Endrik]

Yeah people are taking things personally when they have put so much time into their music and then someone says that really they are not musicians.

I disagree at some point about what you called a steaming pile of horse crap. Let's take Aerosmith. Steve Tyler likes Joe Perry because Joe is so primitive and doesn't know anything about the rules, with his "blind" approach he has created so much great music wich is very unique. And then there's Brad Whitford who went to berklee, he is the one who is doing a lot of arranging and stuff like that. So it's like a perfect team. But Steven has stated many times that the reason why Joe comes up with so many legendary riffs and tunes is because he is so primitive.

[UFORocks]

Yeah people are taking things personally when they have put so much time into their music and then someone says that really they are not musicians.

That's kinda the point, it never should have gone that far to begin with

I disagree at some point about what you called a steaming pile of horse crap. Let's take Aerosmith. Steve Tyler likes Joe Perry because Joe is so primitive and doesn't know anything about the rules, with his "blind" approach he has created so much great music wich is very unique. And then there's Brad Whitford who went to berklee, he is the one who is doing a lot of arranging and stuff like that. So it's like a perfect team. But Steven has stated many times that the reason why Joe comes up with so many legendary riffs and tunes is because he is so primitive.

Just because Joe Perry doesn't know what structure or rules he's following when he plays music doesn't mean they don't exist or that he doesnt follow them unknowingly.

Sure being aware of the rules will make someone less likely to break them, and possibly lead to less 'experimentation'. Take running a red-light for example, if you dont know its a rule to stop then you're more likely to just keep on driving, though chances are you're going to get hit by cross traffic.

I think its the same with music, you might 'break a rule' that you dont know exists only to find out you ended up with something that doesnt sound right. One way or another you're going to find out something's not right, either by suffering the consequences of breaking the rule, or by knowing the rule before hand and not breaking it in the first place.

Later,

Steve

[horns666]

I was going to say something..but E and Joe already have..

The only music theory I have is trying not to suck..

Bill Z Bub

[toejam]

I knew you would eventually, Bill.

[toejam]

A lot of classical era and baroque era composers used a thing wich I call 5 pattern. It's something like Am, D, G, C, F, Bdim, E, Am etc.

Circle of Fifths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

[horns666]

I was going to say something..but E and Joe already have..

The only music theory I have is trying not to suck..

Bill Z Bub

Joe..

Do you think Fred shouts "Yabba Dabba Doo" when he shoots his goo?

[Endrik]

Just because Joe Perry doesn't know what structure or rules he's following when he plays music doesn't mean they don't exist or that he doesnt follow them unknowingly.

Sure being aware of the rules will make someone less likely to break them, and possibly lead to less 'experimentation'. Take running a red-light for example, if you dont know its a rule to stop then you're more likely to just keep on driving, though chances are you're going to get hit by cross traffic.

I think its the same with music, you might 'break a rule' that you dont know exists only to find out you ended up with something that doesnt sound right. One way or another you're going to find out something's not right, either by suffering the consequences of breaking the rule, or by knowing the rule before hand and not breaking it in the first place.

I can agree with that, I remember Greg Howe said that know the rules before you are going to break 'em.

That being said I made an example how a great songwriter (Joe Perry) is doing it all without knowing theory. I know he is the real deal because of that. The thing wich is unacceptable to me is when people use theory as a road-map while creating music (writing songs or composing something). It's not their music they are creating, it's the dude's who wrote the motherfucking book.

Circle of Fifths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

I've heard that thing before....somewhere

Is that somekind of a sacrifice altar

You know I figure all these things out pretty qucikly. I know music in and out. I know how everything works, I've mapped out everything in my head. I just don't care about the terms and the rules. I will never learn theory not because I think it's ghey or I'm just an arrogant asshole, it's because it's like math, all these numbers and weird names. I will never remember that shit.

[toejam]

Joe..

Do you think Fred shouts "Yabba Dabba Doo" when he shoots his goo?

Probably "eata thata goo". :ROTF:

[toejam]

I've heard that thing before....somewhere

Is that somekind of a sacrifice altar

You know I figure all these things out pretty qucikly. I know music in and out. I know how everything works, I've mapped out everything in my head. I just don't care about the terms and the rules. I will never learn theory not because I think it's ghey or I'm just an arrogant asshole, it's because it's like math, all these numbers and weird names. I will never remember that shit.

It's like a dangerous meeting from Mercyful Fate... tonight the circle is meeting again. :ROTF: Or COC... if you break the circle, you have no right to live.

I really don't know theory either. I just play by feel and what sounds good to me. I hate math, too!

[JC_Denton]

I know a very talented guitarist named Danny Danzi, and he said that after learning throry he sometimes takes time to think about what is right or wrong , and he hates that because before he just played and never though about .


But i am very happy for knowing theory, it has helped me a lot

[paulbag]

I think finding a good instructor and spending a little time with them can be a good thing. Possibly to help correct bad habits that are detrimental to your playing...I think about finding one from time to time and probably should.