Alternate picking ... confused

[tanpsi]

[FONT=Courier New]
I always go back to just coming up with my own stuff.

One "danger" in that is you can tend to play what comes to your hand easier, rather than what's coming from your head.

The whole purpose of tecnique is to be able to play more of what's in you head or heart or soul.
Unfortunatly the guitar has some weakness when trying to play fast fluid lines, like moving between strings and large interval jumps, so that's what alot of these drills try to improve.

[Newc]

Is Alternate Picking really such a mystery? I mean, I'm no Virtuoso, but I just don't get the big mystery surrounding U-D-U-D.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what everyone's trying to do, but it seems to me that "Economy picking" and "Inside/Outside" picking are merely hype - you pick the first note of that pattern with an upstroke so you're hitting the first note on the next string with a down, and you say you're not crossing a string? You're always crossing a string, no matter where you start or what note's coming next.

[SlasZ]

The technique Gilbert is showing has you skipping 2 strings (the one you're playing on, and skip over the higher one for doing an upstroke).
And when you're playing inside 2 strings you're not skipping any.

[Newc]

But according to this:

-----D---U---D---U---D---U---D---U------D---U---D ......
E||--------------12--14--15--14--12--|--------------||
B||--12--13--15----------------------|--15--13--12--||
G||----------------------------------|--------------||
D||----------------------------------|--------------||
A||----------------------------------|--------------||
E||----------------------------------|--------------||

But, the way i would play it is like this:

-----U---D---U---D---U---D---U---D------U---D---U
E||--------------12--14--15--14--12--|--------------||
B||--12--13--15----------------------|--15--13--12--||
G||----------------------------------|--------------||
D||----------------------------------|--------------||
A||----------------------------------|--------------||
E||----------------------------------|--------------||

You're always skipping (read: crossing over without picking) a string either way.

In the first example (Gilbert's method) you're downpicking the 2nd/15th and then crossing without picking the 1st/12th, then coming up to pick the 1st/12th.

In your method, you're upstroking the 2nd/15th, then crossing it without picking it to downstroke the 1st/12th.

You're always crossing a string without picking it. If you're going for economy of motion (which given the miniscule distance of string spacing and necessary pick travel still doesn't appear to me that there's a measurable difference worth saving), then you'd sweep to the adjacent string instead of crossing it, or better yet, if this is a fast passage, you'd pick the string once and do hammer-ons/pull-offsl for the pattern. With suitable gain the only tonal aspect you lose is the sound of the pick.

[Joe_Steeler]

When I started taking guitar lessons, many many moons ago, my guitar teacher drilled into me the importance of alternate picking. We will have sessions that he will no no more than look at my picking hand and critique the hell out of me.
With time and lots of practicing, it is natural to me and totally unconcious. I believe wit this exercise they drilling the same concept almost becoming a leap from a D on a string and a U on the next.
I do see it as a silly point but one you must make to instill on your picking hand the DUDU motion.

Eventually, like most things in life, a compromise between alternate picking and sweep picking must take place. A healthy balance of both techniques is the key, but you must master one at a time.
Easier said than done, uh?!.... that is why Vai, Morse, Satriani, etc. practice 8-10 hours a day.

[Soap]

Is Alternate Picking really such a mystery? I mean, I'm no Virtuoso, but I just don't get the big mystery surrounding U-D-U-D.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what everyone's trying to do, but it seems to me that "Economy picking" and "Inside/Outside" picking are merely hype - you pick the first note of that pattern with an upstroke so you're hitting the first note on the next string with a down, and you say you're not crossing a string? You're always crossing a string, no matter where you start or what note's coming next.

Agreed.

How hard can it be?
Maybe its me, but I never really gave it much thought.
Its part of a natural growth as a player.
I kept playing the part of the song the required me to learn alternate picking over and over till I got it right. I treated it like anything else I learned on guitar...I kept doing it till I got it right and didn't give it much thought than that. Oh sure, I got frustrated with many things but I kept plugging away till I got it. It never was so much a thinking thing, I never over analyzed technique I was never into the mental masturbation of guitar skills and technique.

The internet wasn't around in the late 70's to discuss guitar.
No one in my family even played on instrument, I was the first.
I didn't have those kind of perks to appreciated and learn from.
Maybe thats why I was so driven and felt like had to prove myself, I don't know.

Oomvay, Gilbert and other modren day yankers weren't around back then.
Perry, Gibbons, Frehley and others of that day weren't shredders per se, but they were huge and talented good players. Which all implemented some degree of alternate picking in their work, but of course not like players of today. Honestly, less is more with some of these players today who don't know how to be tasteful with their technique.
Eddie came later and without a doubt redefined rock guitar.

I learned to play guitar to 2112, a musically masterpiece and Hemisphere's.
Hearing and learning to play 2112 defined me. It was my calling to learn it.
I worked my skill level up by playing parts of it over and over till I got it right, to where it sounded right when playing along with it.
Never once did I refer to it as a journey of learning technique, I just dug Rush and that album and was driven more than anything else to learn it.

I didn't have a warm up exercise of scales, certain licks, arpeggios, alternate picking, sweeping or finger and hand stretching such was unheard of in my day. Anyone that would've done hand stretching before he played
I would've laughed and said are you a fag? I just picked it up and played.
I learned, developed and matured as a player by the stuff I was digging at the time. Ex. Angus Young as a technician in comparision to alot of todays players he pales. But he has a killer a vibrato that is to die for which lacks in alot of today players.

All this talk about alternate picking and sweep picking and various techniques just seems so trivial and mundane to me. Buy a video or DVD or go to youtube these are great available sources to use and learn from. You can a visual of the technique that way.

[tanpsi]

All this talk about alternate picking and sweep picking and various techniques just seems so trivial and mundane to me.

People sometimes do lose sight of the goal of technique and practice but the goal is simple and good:

To be able to play what you want to play.

If you want to play 2112(All the world's a Stage is one of my favorite albums) and other music written on the guitar you need the technique of the people who wrote it.

If you want to play what's in your head, or what other instruments play, or singers sing, you are going to have to work at overcoming the limitations of the guitar.

I saw Santana on a TV show with some latin singer and they went to trade off phrases, I don't know if Carlos was doing this on purpose but instead of matching the singer, he did some "blues box" approximation. I know he could have meant to do that.

For me I like fast metal, and sometimes in a solo I want to rip up or down the scale. At this point I can only achieve that through hammer on and pull offs, which is cool but sound different than picking each note. That's why I practice, so I can some day play what I want in a solo.

Also I would give Gilbert, Vai, Satriani a chance, a lot of people rag on them but if you listen to what they say, they constantly acknowledge that techique is a just tool to help make music with.

[MattyCakes]

strict alternate picking for example, in a three note pattern on adjacent strings, would have you start with a down stroke on the first string and lead with an upstroke on the second string. you could start vice versa.

crossing two strings like in your first example is outside picking while the second example is inside picking. at a certain point, especially if you are playing with a metronome, outside picking is not as practical. you can only do it up to some point. if you want to maximize your speed with this method, accentuate your upstroke on the high E and do the same on the b string, D note. it is good to practice all of the ways because at one time or another it will come in handy

[tanpsi]

it is good to practice all of the ways because at one time or another it will come in handy

That's what I was trying to say, but I was a little long winded haha.

When you get into a solo you want to be able to go where the music takes you, so the more you have to choose from the better

[MattyCakes]

you eventually want to be able to do whatever without thinking about it, i.e improv