Diminished scales.......

[lerxstcat]

Re: Diminished scales.......

Originally posted by diablomozart:
glad you understood it!!! i didn't!!!lol...d.m.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who said I understood it? I'm just glad to have a place to go to LEARN to understand it! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Rick, I did think of a song where a B diminished chord is played leading up to
a B Phrygian solo (I don't know my modes
really, but it seems related to harmonic
minor - anyone who knows feel free to correct me!) It's The Sails of Charon
by Scorpions, with Ulrich Roth on guitar.
The chords in the intro are, in the key of B, C-B C-B C-B C-D-C and repeats. Uli
comes in with a blazing Phrygian-mode solo, then starts with a B diminished arpeggio, and plays diminished 3-note arpeggios up the fretboard chromatically
until he hits high B, then does a descending Phrygian scale into the verse.
It's screamin' and it was done in 1977!

Again, I only know it's Phrygian mode because Yngwie remade the song on his Inpiration CD and mentioned it in the liner notes. Yngwie's version is cool, but nearly as cool as the original because Ulrich Roth knows when NOT to play, which Yngwie is still working on that ability! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[skidd]

Re: Diminished scales.......

The easy way to look at this from a theory standpoint is this. Take the key the song is in, go to the 7th of the scale (7th being the leading tone)start the lick there and then you can move it up in 4 fret intervals. Till you get to the next chord change or lead into another lick.

C Major Scale

c d e f g a b c

b would be the 7th tone

Hope that helps.

[Riffmeister]

Re: Diminished scales.......

Diablomozart,

I don't know how to post,but I will send you the song. I'll try to just get the solo section. I'm still learning how to do this crap.

Lerx,

Thanks for all the info. Iknow it took a lot to type all that. The one thing I did get was where to start, and how to come out of a dimdinshed run. As far as all that I. and V chord stuff, well it made my hair stick up as it went over my head [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[diablomozart]

Re: Diminished scales.......

my email is:
[email protected]

[Riffmeister]

Re: Diminished scales.......

D.M.

I sent you the clip, but I got a message saying that your E-mail didn't work, or something like that.

[diablomozart]

Re: Diminished scales.......

try using a lower conversion rate for the mp3...i think e-mail can onlt take up to either 1 or 3 megs...d.m.

[diablomozart]

Re: Diminished scales.......

thank you cleveland metal, too bad i'm not in cleveland or i'd ask for a link to my website on yours...lol...seriously, i really try to play whatever i think is right for the song...sometimes i get lucky...i love my amp and wouldn't trade it for the world...for years i used marshalls and hi-watts and the gain never seemed quite right to me , then another guitar player turned me on to the ampeg and i've been playing them ever since...again thanks for the kind words...p.s. i can send you a full album or demo if you want to review it... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
rick, is there anyway you could post a sound clip of the chord progression of this song or solo section? it would be easier for us to figure out the root and possibly offer advice as to where you could go to modulate into the diminished scales...
btw if you think our explanations were wild check out this link...it totally blew my mind!!!lol...d.m.
http://www.outsideshore.com/school/almanac/html/Music_Theory/ Jazz_Scales/Symmetric_Scales/WH_Diminished_Scale.htm

[ January 21, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: diablomozart ]

[lerxstcat]

Re: Diminished scales.......

Originally posted by Rick:
Oh my god , I am really confused now [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

So ,refering to the post above, there is no B note in a B diminished scale?

What ever key I'm in, do I just start a diminished scale on the note that is a half step below, but can't end on any of those notes?

If the above is correct, and god I hope cause if not then I have no clue what you guys are saying [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] , can the scale be played over any chord in the progression?

One more ?, what key am I in when the chords are F#m, A and E?
Sorry 2 more ?s [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] The other is if the song is composed of all the above chords, and also C#m, and F, does that change the key to something else other than the progresion above ,which is what the solo is played over?
I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving me on this. If I had know that it was something this difficult for ME, I wouldn't have posted the ? trying to get you guys to help me understand this mess. Thanks again!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I TOLD you I'd put my foot in my mouth! LOL! If you're playing in B minor, say,
I would tend to play diminished arpeggios
starting on Bb or C#, take them up and/or
down the scale, and after playing the last arpeggio to end on a Bb or C#, THEN I would play the B natural to END the solo, resolving the musical tension that
the diminished arpeggios created. You don't play that B root note DURING the diminished runs, but you come out of them
and land on it. It doesn't sound like it makes sense but it's how it's used in most cases, and it works well.

As for what key an F# minor, A and E chord progression is in, my first answer is F# minor, but it could be A or E as well, depending on how you play the chords together. I assume the A and E are major chords or root-5 power chords since
you didn't specify. All three chords are of notes found in the F# minor scale, A major scale, and E major scale. The F# minor is actually the relative minor to A major, meaning that all the notes in an A
major scale also appear in F# natural minor. As for C#m and F adding to that progression, a C# major or C#7 chord would work better, since C# is the dominant (V) chord in the key of F#m. The dominant chord usually has a major 3rd interval in it's structure whether the tonic (I) chord is major OR minor, because that major 3rd of the dominant chord is ALSO the major 7th of the tonic
chord's scale. That sounds odd when we're talking about a progression that's in a minor key, but your ear still wants to hear that major 7th resolve to the tonic chord 1/2 step above. That is why
we have harmonic minor scales and melodic
minor in addition to natural minor. The
harmonic minor scale is the version that
works so well with diminished scales because it has a major 7th in it, unlike the natural minor. Now the F you mentioned would sound odd as an F CHORD in F#m, but it IS the major 7th tone in F# HARMONIC minor and is the major 3rd tone present in a C# major or C#7 chord, so all those chords would mor or less fit into the F# harmonic minor scale.

This sounds confusing, but if you pick up
your guitar and do it it will sound RIGHT
to your ears. Sorry I can't explain it better than this! [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

Lerx

[ZeNo]

Re: Diminished scales.......

hmmm i like those scales! got more? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[diablomozart]

Re: Diminished scales.......

zeno, you can check the link above in the post, it has more info than i could digest in years...lol...also try taking you basic minor scale and dropping random notes from them...really screws up your playing but can get some really cool melodies out of them...same goes for any 2 or 3 octave arpeggios...d.m.

[Riffmeister]

Re: Diminished scales.......

Thanks D. M. for all your help. The solo starts 2 bars into the F# , and the gay clean guitar will be gone. I recorded this using my brothers zoom digital recorder, and when he sent it to me, he had put the clean guitar in it.

It doesn't sound all that good cause I used the simulaters in the recorder instead of miking my amp. Once it's finished, I'll re-record those tracks with my gear. Thanks for any help on this.

[ZeNo]

Re: Diminished scales.......

oopz i looked over the link [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[diablomozart]

Re: Diminished scales.......

ok, hopefully lerx will chime in on this one, here's the mp3 of the solo section that rick's wanting to fit in a diminshed scale somewhere...he said the clean guitar is going away...any opinions or advice?...d.m.
http://onlinerock.com/musicians/torq//solo_rythm.mp3

[Riffmeister]

Re: Diminished scales.......

Anyone ?

[diablomozart]

Re: Diminished scales.......

i'd stick with the harmonic minor thing we discussed...also when doing a solo, sit down and listen to the backing track a few times without the guitar in your hands...sooner or later a melody will pop in your head, that's usually the starting point for a good solo...d.m.