question about keys

[chopper45hd]

ok i hear ppl talking about this song or that song being played in the key of c or a or what ever. so what do they mean? i also hear them aruge its played in c or a is this different?
can some one explain all this to me or have any diagrams of the fretboard that explain it.

i know it sounds like a dumb question to most here but i gotta ask anyway

[LesPaulCustom]

Re: question about keys

A key really is nothing more than a "family" of notes, basically a scale.

Say the Key of G, the natural notes of it are G A B C D E F# G.....so a song in that key with no accidentals would include notes/chords from that group of notes.

The Roman Numeral system helps out too.

I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
G

[LesPaulCustom]

Re: question about keys

A key really is nothing more than a "family" of notes, basically a scale.

Say the Key of G, the natural notes of it are G A B C D E F# G.....so a song in that key with no accidentals would include notes/chords from that group of notes.

The Roman Numeral system helps out too.

I II III IV V VI VII VIII
G A B C D E F# G

So, a 1-4-5 prog would be G C D

It isn't really that hard...

[Easyrider7467]

Re: question about keys

Sure, here goes...
The key of "C" ......has no sharps or flats (referred to as "accidentals").
then count a fifth up from C
(known as Cycle of Fifths)
The key of "G" ......one sharp = F#
a fifth from G
Key of "D" ..........two sharps = F# C#
(C# is also a fifth from F#)
Key of "A" ..........three sharps = F#,C#,D#.

Are you getting the hang of it?
The cycle of fifths stops when you arrive at the first sharp which was F# in the G scale.

The same holds true for the Flat Keys, except you count a fourth from the "C". and each fourth note of that scale is flat, therefore....

A fourth from C .........F Flat scale, which has one flat the "b". And so on....

Now, every major scale has a minor in it. Simply the 6th note is referred to as the "relative Minor" which is called a Natural Minor when you write the scale from that relative minor point.
For example;
C major scale (no sharps or flats), its sixth note is an "A" therefore its relative minor is and "A".
Hence, the "A" scale is called an
"A" Natural Minor.
Because it as well ("A" Natural Minor) has no sharps or flats, just like the C major scale. But the scale is written starting with an "A".

There are loads more, but just to keep it to the point I'll stop here. Hope that clarified things, if not we'll try again. Ask anything, more than happy to reply. John.

[chopper45hd]

Re: question about keys

ok to find all that on a fret board i am still lost. starting with fret #1 would be which key?
moving down the frets...1 3 5 7 9 12 and so on how do you find say the key of A?
i heard a couple of ppl argueing that a song was played in A and he was in one spot on the frets. another guy was saying it was played in C and was in another spot all together.
i know and have been praticeing scale forms but past knowing the forms and what finger to use next i am lost on note names on the fret board.

[LesPaulCustom]

Re: question about keys

The fret markers aren't Key markers, they are position markers....1st fret would be first position, 5th fret would be 5th posotion etc. etc.

The keys are note/chordal/scale relationships.

Shoot me an e-mail and I'll see what I can do to help explain it better.

[Tekky]

Re: question about keys

Originally posted by chopper45hd:
ok to find all that on a fret board i am still lost. starting with fret #1 would be which key?
moving down the frets...1 3 5 7 9 12 and so on how do you find say the key of A?
i heard a couple of ppl argueing that a song was played in A and he was in one spot on the frets. another guy was saying it was played in C and was in another spot all together.
i know and have been praticeing scale forms but past knowing the forms and what finger to use next i am lost on note names on the fret board.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, not to sound condescending, but I think the first thing that you really need to learn is the notes on your fretboard. Once you stop thinking in terms of numbered tablature, you'll be able to pick up on how to define where the keys are.

[chopper45hd]

Re: question about keys

lpc, email shot your way.
matt, you have any material to help me learn Im stuff? i use to be a big Im fan.
tekky, you dont sound condescending at all. as i cant find a real teacher in the area i live in everyone here is my wealth of info. problem is that i am a visual learner. seeing it done is alot easier than reading it.
some of you guys just need to move to my town and start a real music school.

[Tekky]

Re: question about keys

Give me some time to put some stuff together and I'll put it on my site. A lot of my knowledge is self-taught, but I also had 3 years of Music Theory in High School to get me started.

[etaeniura]

Re: question about keys

I'd recommend taking a few months of piano lessons. YOu will learn music theory as you go, and the piano is a very visual instrument. I also took music theory classes in HS and college, and even though I suck as a guitar player, knowing the relationships between notes and how to build chords is indispensible.

[chopper45hd]

Re: question about keys

tekky that would be real cool. thanks.
eta, piano lessons are also out as the closest teacher for that is also a pretty good distance away and full up on students. i really hate living in a rural bible belt southern backwoods town [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[OnlineStageGear]

Re: question about keys

There are a lot of cool Maiden tunes to learn from. Trooper is a cool one as well as Revelations. Before you get to that point, know your notes. A lot of people go way too long without knowing thier notes/scales and your learning will suffer in the long run. It is also a lot easier to learn stuff by ear if you know where the notes should fall. I am not saying to rack your brain figuring out every note on every string, but be able to count um if you have to. A minor / C Major is the easiest Key/Scale since there are no Sharps or Flats. A B C D E F G (All white keys on Piano)

Matt

[OnlineStageGear]

Re: question about keys

Seeing as how most of the songs you will run across in Rock/Metal are in Minor, I would start there.

A good band to learn keys and scales from and how to use them is Iron Maiden. 99.9% or thier songs will use almost the whole minor key for the rhythm and leads.

Matt

[LesPaulCustom]

Re: question about keys

Chopper, I haven't gotten your e-mail bro...resend it please....

Hey, do we live in the same small, hick town??

[Tekky]

Re: question about keys

From the chart, you can see a pattern, and from that pattern you can actually start to get a grasp on some basic theory.

Each fret on your guitar is a half step. (or a tone) Today's modern music is a 12 tone system. By using the musical alphabet (A-B-C-D-E-F-G), this means that from A to A (an Octave) there are 12 distinct tones. For discussion purposes, we'll just stick to simple tones. With the exception of B-C and E-F the distance between each letter is a whole step. As you can see by the chart, B-C and E-F have no tone between them, these are known as "natural half-steps". These half steps play a distinct part in keys/scales.

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The chart depicts the key of C. It's corresponding scale is C Major. This means that if you play a song in C Major the only notes you'll play are C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. This is not to say that the song won't deviate from this, more often than not, it will by using "passing tones" or it may even change key completely in a process called "modulation".

Now going back to the key of C, the half steps are between scale degrees 3 - 4 and 7 - 1. These are the defining characteristics of a Major scale. The location of these half steps are what gives a scale it's tonality. Now, to confuse you even further, you can build new scales off of each scale degree.

For example, the 2nd scale degree in the key of C is D. Keeping in the same key and building a new scale from that starting point, you get the greek mode of D Dorian. The half steps are now in a new location. To play those notes in succession as compared to the C Major scale, you'll notice quite a difference. Why? Well, as was stated before, the half-steps are what gives a scale it's tonality. In Dorian, they are in a different location. They have moved to 2-3 and 6-7. (See graphic)

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But in the interest of moving back into more familiar territory, we'll fast forward to the 6th scale degree which is A. When you build a scale from this as a starting point, you get A Aeolian. You've heard this referred to more commonly as A Minor (pure). Just like with D Dorian, the half-steps have shifted. In some ways it is similar in tonailty to D Dorian because of the placement of the first half step. (2-3) where it differs from D Dorian is the placement of the 2nd half step. (5-6)(See graphic) But one constant relationship with all of these scales... They're all the same notes.

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I hope I explained this well enough. Guys? Keep me honest here...

[ April 09, 2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: TEKKY ]