question about keys

[Tekky]

Re: question about keys

This will help get started until I can get something more comprehensive...

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[Easyrider7467]

Re: question about keys

Congratulations with your House!!

Well, sure, starting on a note, say C and moving to the next highest C would be one octave, yes.
There is a certain pattern that is standard for all keys, sharps and flats alike. I'll show you later once you learned all the notes. You can send me an email and I can help you directly too, if you'd like.
Still, just stick to learning the notes and the other things I mentioned in my previous post. Keep us posted.

[Easyrider7467]

Re: question about keys

Copper45HD,
Whats up? So what have you been able to learn so far from our inputs? Give us a summary. For example; are you learning the strings and where each note lands on which fret.

Honestly, Just learn one string at a time from its open name (first string being 'E') then work down to the 12th fret. Use the diagram that Tekky posted of the fret board to help you.

Then I would learn, starting with 'C'. Each key and their respective accidentals (sharps or flats). Use what I posted earlier, if its confusing I'll break it down better. Try this on some paper.

Sharp Keys (title it)

Key. / Amount of Sharps / Sharp Name(#)

C none 0

G has 1 sharp it is F#

D 2 F# C#

A 3 F# C# D#

E 4 F# C# D# A#

B 5 F# C# D# A# E#

F# 6 F# C# D# A# E# B#

Well, I guess I just did it for you. You can write this now and learn it. It stops at F#.
The flat keys are the same system except you count up by fourths. And you start with an F, not a C like in the sharp key and not fifths like in the sharp keys, if you want at a later day I can write it out for you. Be glad to. John.
That it. Thats all I would do, learn the strings and this table above for now. Keep us posted.

[chopper45hd]

Re: question about keys

sorry it took so long to reply guys, this weeks has been real busy since i just signed papers on a new house friday [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

so scale forms are simply playing notes from say c to c again across the strings the same as playing notes on a piano up to the next octave?
the chart tekky posted was a big help even tho i dont fully understand all he wrote yet.

[TB]

Re: question about keys

It's been explained here already, but here's how I relate it to students - there is a formula for a major scale, that applies regardless of what note you start on.

Think of a whole step as the distance between the 1st & 3rd frets on your guitar; think of a half step as the distance between the first & second frets.

Key for formula:

whole step = 1

half step = 1/2

formula:

1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1/2

It's easiest to visualize this on the piano, & in the key of C, as there are no naturally occuring sharps or flats (black keys on the piano), in the key of C.

From C to D is a whole step.

From D to E is a whole step.

From E to F is a half step (no black piano key in between these two notes)

From F to G is a whole step.

From G to A is a whole step.

From A to B is a whole step.

From B to C is a half step (no black piano key in between)


Start the formula on any given note and you'll have the major scale for that key.

It's important to note that what we are talking about here is Western harmony - Eastern harmony is an entirely different beast that I know very little about, other than it contains microtonalities.

Western harmony is basically built by stacking the 3rd intervals that are diatonic (naturally occuring) within the key.

So we take it a step further & harmonize the major scale by stacking the diatonic 3rds, which gives us the 4 note chords for each scale.

To again keep it simple by looking at the key of C - first the notes, then the intervals relative to the root note, then the chord that they spell:


I chord - C,E,G,B (1,3,5,7) = C major 7

II chord - D,F,A,C (1,b3,5,b7) = D minor 7

III chord - E,G,B,D (1,b3,5,b7) = E minor 7

IV chord - F,A,C,E (1,3,5,7) = F major 7

V chord - G,B,D,F (1,3,5,b7) = G7 ( dominant 7th)

VI chord - A,C,E,G (1,b3,5,b7) = A minor 7

VII chord - B,D,F,A (1,b3,b5,b7) = B minor 7 b5


So, in harmonizing the major scale, the I & IV chords are always Major 7 chords (1,3,5,7); the II,III,& VI chords are always Minor 7 chords (1,b3,5,b7); the V chord is always Dominant 7 (1,3,5,b7); the VII chord is always Minor 7 b5 (1,b3,b5,b7).

Any diatonic notes stacked above the four primary notes of the chord spellings are called extensions - meaning that they are simply an octave above the fundamental note (just add 7 to the original interval).

Example -

(9th = 2nd)

(11th = 4th)

(13th = 6th)

You can of course harmonize all of the modes as well. Music has much in common with mathematics, in that, it its strictest sense, it is comprised of formulas. However, unlike mathematics (for the most part), in music the rules are meant to be broken, in whatever way the ear wants to hear it. Some of the greatest music known to mankind takes the theory & formulas & throws them right out the window. And of course there is plenty of great music that adamantly adheres to strict theory.

[Ninja Guitar]

Re: question about keys

Ah music theory, my old friend/enemy. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[chopper45hd]

Re: question about keys

so now theres western and eastern harmony? well damn now i am in trouble [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
ok so after spending a couple of weeks to learn the note names and places on the fretboard,i am lost again. yea i can find c notes on the frets but as i move down the frets to other c notes what key does that make it? say i make a c chord, then the 5th fret on the c note,then what does it become? basically what i am asking is how to use more than the 1st few frets to make chords? ....i think.....i dont know....i am so lost ...i hate being a beginner [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] am gonna go pratice sm check back later

[speed monkey]

Re: question about keys

Long time Teacher says:

Nice work guys! [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

I'm impressed that you've all taken the time to show chopper whats up and point him in the right direction - rather than turn this into a heckle fest...Tekky took it to the next level...

A little bit of knowledge goes long way with the guitar, and ultimately allows everybody to communicate...it also makes it alot more fun, which is what this is all about...at that point you can forget all that you've learned and get back to playing

Steve E

[speed monkey]

Re: question about keys

Originally posted by chopper45hd:
....i think.....i dont know....i am so lost ...i hate being a beginner [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] am gonna go pratice sm check back later

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Chopper -

Relax - if you're old enough, have a beer....it's all been laid out for you, very very thoroughly I might add.

It looks overwhelming, but work in small bites...in fact, print out this thread and start a notebook, because I guarantee you the descriptions you've been given are as accurate as you'll find.

Another way to look at it - a scale has 8 notes( 1 & 8 are the same - your 'octave')....you can build a simple chord from each note using your root, third and fifth or notes 1-3-5 of the scale. Take whatever basic scale you already know, play it on one string - and build a chord with each note. Need another beer yet? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Also - if this makes you feel any better, here's a learning concept to ponder: Since the guitar repeats itself at the 12th fret, and your favorite Jackson probably has a 24 fret neck - all you have to do is learn ONE HALF of the neck, and you've already taught yourself the other...make sense? I'd reach for beer # 3 now.

Just play. alot. It will happen.


Steve E

[chopper45hd]

Re: question about keys

speed, thats the reason i come here,always good ppl around that are willing to help rather than down ya cause ya dont know something.
and while i may be slow to understand this stuff i am determined to learn it both the theory and the actual playing. to me if i can do something but cant tell you why i do it then thats only half way learning it. seems every time i come back and re-read the thread i learn something new.
i get the feeling someday i will be sitting around with some of you guys playing and talking about how it jsut clicked in my head one day [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
thanks for all the input from everyone so far [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[TB]

Re: question about keys

Originally posted by chopper45hd:
so now theres western and eastern harmony? well damn now i am in trouble [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
....i think.....i dont know....i am so lost ...i hate being a beginner [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] am gonna go pratice sm check back later

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep... just listen to Jeff Beck & John McLaughlin & all shall be verily revealed unto ye... well sorta... it's a helluva lot easier if you actually happen to BE JB or JM... I'm certainly not... and while you're at it, by all means, pick up some early 60's Floyd Cramer "slip note" piano licks, some Wes Montgomery "thumb octaves", some Charlie Parker style II-V-I's, & get a grasp on Ornette Coleman's "outside" harmonies...

But no man, seriously, stay diligent & curious, get a good teacher, work hard, & it will all come your way, I promise, unless God forbid, you're unfortunately run over by a large vehicle. Most importantly, relax, enjoy, & as Steve E says, have a beer. Hell, I think I'll join you. It's just music man, not a cure for cancer, no reason to attempt to give birth to a cow. Again, relax & enjoy the cool noises. Peace, out. [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[Tekky]

Re: question about keys

Originally posted by speed monkey:
Long time Teacher says:

Nice work guys! [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

I'm impressed that you've all taken the time to show chopper whats up and point him in the right direction - rather than turn this into a heckle fest...Tekky took it to the next level...

A little bit of knowledge goes long way with the guitar, and ultimately allows everybody to communicate...it also makes it alot more fun, which is what this is all about...at that point you can forget all that you've learned and get back to playing

Steve E

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks. I had a teacher (ironically enough, she was my Music Theory teacher) who always said, you don't know it unless you can teach it to someone else.

[Outlander]

Re: question about keys

Hey Chopper, There is a lot of great info here on this thread.Take care not to try and absorb too much at once but take it in as steps or it rapidly becomes quite overwhelming.
As you can see by the great note graph there are only 7 basic notes that repeat themselves all over the neck. The same is basically true with the chords, if you have a good chord book you can see that there are many different ways and positions or places on the neck to play the same chord as well.These chords or notes will have the same values but sound tonally different depending on where you play them.Even though it appears repetitious it these nuances that help to color or affect the attitude or style of what we're playing ie. certain chord positions of the same chord can sound darker or heavier or even more open than others.
Just keep playing and having fun with it and it will start to make more sense to you as you go along.
KEEP ON ROCKIN' [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[BlizzardOfOzz]

Re: question about keys

I'm in the same boat as you chopper45hd and I'm glad you started this thread. This thread has been one of the most helpful things I've found here on the JCF. Cheers to everyone who took the time to explain things so well. It is appreciated very much.