BIG question: rhythm playing

[Miffy rules]

Whenever I'm playing a pretty basic rhythm part, it always seems that I can pull it off flawlessly. But when I pay attention, the feeling is just not there. I can't here the "flow" or the "swing" of the rhythm. It's just chunga-chunga to me. I know there's hardly any mistake in my technique (since basic rhythm stuff requires little technique), nor is it badly out of tempo, so something else must be wrong. What makes a rhythm playing really stand out? And how do you do it? Is it about dynamics? I need your experience and advice. [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] Thanks.

[fuel0707]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

Maybe by paying attention to your playing so much, it's a sign that perhaps you aren't allowing yourself to get into the feel of the part. Or perhaps, depending on the rhythm part, maybe you don't know it as well as you might think. I don't mean that to sound like a slag. But I know that when I mess up a part, it can often be due to the fact that I don't know the part as well as I thought.

Another thought for improving your rhythm playing is to practice either with a CD, backing tracks or even a metronome. A friend of mine likes to say that if you can swing against a metronome, you can swing with any rhythm section.

[etaeniura]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

Rhythm playing is all about style-If you think you play rhythm best when you are not concentrating solely on timing, then go for it. You also have to work with your lead player (if you have one). IF your lead can play well against your relaxed rhythm, ythen you are good. If you comcentrate more on timing and working with a metronome when you are practicing, then your "feel" when playing loosely will be tighter. That sounds like babble to me....it's late. It's like playing a sport-the more you paractice the "basics", the better off you will be in the real game.

[MetalChef]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

I think you need to work beyond just the technique.

as you stated, look into dynamics, feel and overall groove.

Listen carefully...sometimes the timing is not exact. I suggest you learn some Jazz stuff if you can to learn groove more.

[SeventhSon]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

I was learning the bass intro to Sweet Emotion, and if you play it straight per what's written, it sounds like ass. If you play it with the CD, you can feel how you need to make it swing just the tiniest bit in order to get it to groove right. And it makes all the difference.

I have heard that a little mother nature can be beneficial to finding the groove on a song. But that's just a rumor...

[SeventhSon]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

So what I was trying to say is that the "groove" of the song is defined by how the actual band members move the song along. And if you play it straight as notated it will rarely sound right. So I like to learn a part by playing with the CD to get the groove right.

[Miffy rules]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

I agree that playing along the cd is the most efficient way. Thanks guys! [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

But you can't play along to the CD all the time - like when you play the song in a band.
The best way IMO is to memorize the entire song in your head. Most peopl I've heard/seen focus on the lyrics of the song, and base their timing on that alone, and I did that for a while as well, but then I tried to do that while following a live version of the song, and it just didn't work because the singer was not doing the line with the same meter as on the disc.
So, I focused more on the drums, but again that doesn't work in a live setting with a real band because the drummer may add his own accents and style to the song, so if you're following, say, the snare and/or kick, and your drummer does it a bit differently than the original drummer, you're going to be stuck following the original drummer's style.

In the end, you should definitely memorize the entire song (instead of "air guitar" to the disc, play real guitar to the "air disc"). Then go back and compare your playing to the disc and see how you stack up - you'd be pleasantly surprised that you have been nailing it without listening to it.
However, by memorizing the part, it's fairly easy to just repeat it without dynamics or "feel", so you've got to keep those in mind. The way I do that, again, is to keep my "internal metronome" in sync with the original recording. That way, even if a drummer is adding his own style to it (extra or different beats/fills, etc) but keeping the tempo, I'm still where I need to be when he comes out of that fill or whatever and am not trying to follow him.
It sounds wierd, since you're supposed to follow the drums, but like I said, as long as the drummer is keeping the correct timing and is not either speeding up or slowing down too much (or in the wrong places anyway, like stops and changes), you can't go wrong.

Of course, the real trick is getting everyone else in the band to do the same thing [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Newc

[SeventhSon]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

Totally agree Newc. But I think before you can internalize the song structure (as you most excellently describe), you gotta get a feel for how the song grooves. Is the beat laid back or pushed? Does it swing a tiny bit or played completely straight up? And I think you can only nail this if you listen to the actual musicians who put the song together. And I think nailing the groove on different songs allows you to discover the subtleties between adequate and kick-ass rhythym guitar playing. JMHO.

[Miffy rules]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

Originally posted by Newc:
But you can't play along to the CD all the time - like when you play the song in a band.
The best way IMO is to memorize the entire song in your head. Most peopl I've heard/seen focus on the lyrics of the song, and base their timing on that alone, and I did that for a while as well, but then I tried to do that while following a live version of the song, and it just didn't work because the singer was not doing the line with the same meter as on the disc.
So, I focused more on the drums, but again that doesn't work in a live setting with a real band because the drummer may add his own accents and style to the song, so if you're following, say, the snare and/or kick, and your drummer does it a bit differently than the original drummer, you're going to be stuck following the original drummer's style.

In the end, you should definitely memorize the entire song (instead of "air guitar" to the disc, play real guitar to the "air disc"). Then go back and compare your playing to the disc and see how you stack up - you'd be pleasantly surprised that you have been nailing it without listening to it.
However, by memorizing the part, it's fairly easy to just repeat it without dynamics or "feel", so you've got to keep those in mind. The way I do that, again, is to keep my "internal metronome" in sync with the original recording. That way, even if a drummer is adding his own style to it (extra or different beats/fills, etc) but keeping the tempo, I'm still where I need to be when he comes out of that fill or whatever and am not trying to follow him.
It sounds wierd, since you're supposed to follow the drums, but like I said, as long as the drummer is keeping the correct timing and is not either speeding up or slowing down too much (or in the wrong places anyway, like stops and changes), you can't go wrong.

Of course, the real trick is getting everyone else in the band to do the same thing [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Newc

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree with ya, and actually this is what I've been trying to do. But the big problem with me is, when I pay attention to my playing, I can hardly hear and feel myself play. I can bang my head, get wild and try to "fit in" when I play, but this doesn't mean I really "express" my feeling. Besides, there seems to be a major difference between "controlling dynamics with a planned-out playing style" and "making the music sing itself". You know what I mean? This is a gap between sense and sensibility. [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

I get what you're saying. [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

What I shoulda have said instead of 'internal metronome' was 'internal CD-player' - if you've got the original CD going in your head, you've got the rest of the music with it, and you can think of yourself as playing along to the CD, and you will be able to recall the CD's dynamics and phrasing a bit better (especially when your repertoire reaches over 100 songs, and many sound alike).
The only place I usually have trouble is during lead breaks and such where I start in the right song but end up in another one (this usually happens with Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath due to the changes during the solo pasages)

Newc

[Miffy rules]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

Yes, internalizing the music as a whole into my mind is a good way to get myself into the music. As for my problem of crossing the gap between knowing the feeling and feeling the feeling, well, maybe practice is the only solution. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] When it clicks, it clicks. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks alot gentlemen! [img]graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

[kokostevens]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

In my opinion, the key to rhythym playing is to follow the drums, like an above post said. You can do this in a live setting, I've found, as long as you are somewhat familiar with the drummer. Really though, if you feel you are just "playing" a rhythym as opposed to "feeling" it too, I think it's just a matter of kind of making it your own. We all have certain things we like to do in our playing. So even if you didn't write it, you can kind of make it your own without changing the overall sound.

[KYJoe]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

If you want your rhythm playing to shine, you have to practice it as often as everything else. You feel like you're "out of the pocket", so practice and you will improve.

Newc gave you a good tip, here's another one that relates to his...You should try to be as diverse as you can with your CD choices. Throw in at least one blues, country, jazz, or anything else you have. This, like using a metronome will mix things up and add alot of different tempos for you to work with. It's more fun than the metronome, working with a drummer or better yet a drum machine is another option.

Last but not least, sing or at least mouth the words as you're playing the song. It will help you remember key and tempo changes so you'll know before they happen. When all else fails, blame it on the bass player! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Joe

[DJROBA]

Re: BIG question: rhythm playing

Are you playing along with other people, or with a cd, or by yourself?