I can't wrap my brain around scales

[JetFixxxer]

I don't know if I'm looking into too much (I tend to do this).. something is not clicking. I can memorize scale patterns and regurgitate them from memory. I want to know the theory.

1- Lets take Movable Patterns... if I move the pattern down one fret (1/2 step) is that note the root of the scale now?

2- Can movable pattern be moved from up and down vertically.

3- If a scale doesn't start on it's root doesn't that make it another root of another scale?

I have read tons of books and visited many site and still cant' grasp the simplicity of scales.

I'm hoping someone here can make that bulb turn on in my head.

[Spivonious]

I don't know if I'm looking into too much (I tend to do this).. something is not clicking. I can memorize scale patterns and regurgitate them from memory. I want to know the theory.

1- Lets take Movable Patterns... if I move the pattern down one fret (1/2 step) is that note the root of the scale now?

2- Can movable pattern be moved from up and down vertically.

3- If a scale doesn't start on it's root doesn't that make it another root of another scale?

I have read tons of books and visited many site and still cant' grasp the simplicity of scales.

I'm hoping someone here can make that bulb turn on in my head.

1. Yes.
2. Do you mean across strings? If so, yes, but since G->B is a different interval, the pattern will have to change a bit to compensate.
3. If a scale doesn't start on its root, then it's most likely a modal scale. For example, a C Major scale starting on E is an E Phrygian scale. A C Major scale starting on A is an A Natural Minor scale, or A Aeolian scale.

A scale is nothing more than a sequence of notes. I could play C Db E F# G Ab B C and call it the Spivonious scale. Where things get interesting is in the chords built off of that scale. Your basic chord gets built by assembling a note, a third above the note, and a fifth above the note (you can also add 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc., and not all of them have to be played at once).

Let's make chords off of the C Major scale (C D E F G A B C).

C -> 3rd above = E -> 5th above = G, so C-E-G. Since C-E is a major 3rd (4 half-steps, or 4 frets) we call it a major chord.

D -> 3rd above = F -> 5th above = A, so D-F-A. Since D-F is a minor 3rd (3 half-steps, or 3 frets) we call it a minor chord.

The chords can be built following this pattern all the way up the scale to get E-G-B, F-A-C, G-B-D, A-C-E, and B-D-F. You might notice that all the chords except for B-D-F have a perfect 5th between the bottom and top note (7 half-steps). B-F is only 6 half-steps, so we call that a diminished 5th (diminished meaning smaller). For this reason we call B-D-F a diminished B chord.

Try building the chords of some other scales. Notice how minor scales have a minor chord as their root, and major scales have a major chord as their root.

To get back to scales, try to memorize the intervals between the notes rather than the patterns on the fretboard. A major scale has the following intervals (W meaning whole-step, H meaning half-step): root-W-W-H-W-W-W-H, or for example, A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A.

I hope that made sense. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

[Gartron]

I found this very helpful,

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/the_crusade_part_4_scales.html

his later colums explain modes in a very down to earth and understandable style....hope it helps!

[Big Al]

Very well said Spivonious!

I use to worry so much about the patterns, root note, remembering the mode names (and how to pronounce them) that I was not really learning the intervals. Once I focused on the intervals, it all fell in place.

[JetFixxxer]

1. Yes.
2. Do you mean across strings? If so, yes, but since G->B is a different interval, the pattern will have to change a bit to compensate.
3. If a scale doesn't start on its root, then it's most likely a modal scale. For example, a C Major scale starting on E is an E Phrygian scale. A C Major scale starting on A is an A Natural Minor scale, or A Aeolian scale.

A scale is nothing more than a sequence of notes. I could play C Db E F# G Ab B C and call it the Spivonious scale. Where things get interesting is in the chords built off of that scale. Your basic chord gets built by assembling a note, a third above the note, and a fifth above the note (you can also add 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc., and not all of them have to be played at once).

Let's make chords off of the C Major scale (C D E F G A B C).

C -> 3rd above = E -> 5th above = G, so C-E-G. Since C-E is a major 3rd (4 half-steps, or 4 frets) we call it a major chord.

D -> 3rd above = F -> 5th above = A, so D-F-A. Since D-F is a minor 3rd (3 half-steps, or 3 frets) we call it a minor chord.

The chords can be built following this pattern all the way up the scale to get E-G-B, F-A-C, G-B-D, A-C-E, and B-D-F. You might notice that all the chords except for B-D-F have a perfect 5th between the bottom and top note (7 half-steps). B-F is only 6 half-steps, so we call that a diminished 5th (diminished meaning smaller). For this reason we call B-D-F a diminished B chord.

Try building the chords of some other scales. Notice how minor scales have a minor chord as their root, and major scales have a major chord as their root.

To get back to scales, try to memorize the intervals between the notes rather than the patterns on the fretboard. A major scale has the following intervals (W meaning whole-step, H meaning half-step): root-W-W-H-W-W-W-H-root.

I hope that made sense. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

Thanks for the information.

I think this is my major hangup. I'm being told that it's a C M scale but if you start on another note such as E its still a C Scale but also a E scale.. that right there isn't making sense to me. Wouldn't it be easier to call everything a C scale. .

C Major scale starting on E is an E Phrygian scale. A C Major scale starting on A is an A Natural Minor scale, or A Aeolian scale.

I have no problems making chords from scales or the intervals.

[jonasaberg]

...

I think this is my major hangup. I'm being told that it's a C M scale but if you start on another note such as E its still a C Scale but also a E scale.. that right there isn't making sense to me. Wouldn't it be easier to call everything a C scale..

I'm no expert but from what I understand, it all depends on what chords you play the scale over.
You can experiment with this by recording a backing track of just a strummed C major chord over and over. Play the scale over that and see how it sounds.
Then record a new backing track, this time just a strummed A minor chord. Then play the scale over that.
So it's more about tonality really and how the scale sounds over something else.

[Spivonious]

Thanks for the information.

I think this is my major hangup. I'm being told that it's a C M scale but if you start on another note such as E its still a C Scale but also a E scale.. that right there isn't making sense to me. Wouldn't it be easier to call everything a C scale. .

I have no problems making chords from scales or the intervals.

It might be easier to think of everything as C scale but it wouldn't really express the tonality. If I'm playing some E Phrygian progression, sure I can noodle around on a C Major scale (since it is an E Phrygian scale), but I'm bound to gravitate towards that E, since my ears tell me it's what the progression is based on.

It's the same if you're playing in A minor. Do you think of that as C major? Most likely not, since it doesn't "sound" major to your ears. But it's exactly the same notes.

I think modes are the most difficult idea in music. Our ears our so conditioned to hearing only major and minor that we have trouble grasping the fact that there are six other tonalities based on the same scale.

Try playing a C Major scale, then starting it on D, then on E, etc. and pick out what makes them different from each other. Try making some progressions in the mode and play some leads over it. It will all come together soon.

[JetFixxxer]

Thanks again Spivonious... Remind me when I in Lancaster to buy a beer or two

Thanks Jonasaberg.

[Spivonious]

Thanks again Spivonious... Remind me when I in Lancaster to buy a beer or two

No problem! I'm glad I could help.

And I hope you plan on giving those beers to me after you buy them

[nhspike]

Very very nicely done Spiv
A+

[Spivonious]

Very very nicely done Spiv
A+

I guess this music degree is useful after all!

[nhspike]

Yes indeed!
(In spite of what Dad said!)
Very nicely done... I even understood it...
And I've had more than one guitar student over the past 44 years or so...

Thanks for taking me "back to my old school"

Aja!

[JetFixxxer]

Spiv - I'm back

Let's talk chord progression... Lets do the Key of E blues..

I-IV-V
E-A-B
Do you have to play so many E's in a bar? etc..

Also I can use any chord progression? Again lets use Key of E.. I could use I-ii-iii-I (E-F#m-G#m-E)? or whatever I want?

[Spivonious]

Your standard 12-bar blues progression is

E E E E | E E E E | E E E E | E E E E |
A A A A | A A A A | E E E E | E E E E |
B B B B | A A A A | E E E E | E/B E/B E/B E/B

with every letter being a beat and | marking the measures.

Not sure what you mean by so many Es.... Of course you don't have to play everything right on the beat, just as long as each bar is divided as shown above. Otherwise it's not a true 12-bar blues. The last bar shows that you can put a turnaround in if you want to, but it's not required.

Using any chord progression won't work. It has to follow the Tonic, Subdominant, Dominant pattern. That doesn't necessarily mean I-IV-V have to be used, but again for a true 12-bar blues it must be I-IV-V.

For instance you could do I-ii7-V or I-IV-vii if you wanted to, since those chords still fit the tonic, subdominant, dominant relationships.

I-ii-iii-I doesn't make much sense, since iii doesn't logically lead to I, but it's your song It just wouldn't be standard blues anymore.

[zeegler]

I thought scales were things on fish and reptiles.